topic Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities in Modeling

Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Ahmed_K — Sat, 01 Aug 2020 07:47:05 GMT

Hi mates, you all here have seen the letter writen by architects to Autodesk, and so more are joining it,
This could be a great opportunity to GRAPHISOFT to catch bew users, and make the community bigger
More focus on agressive marketing,

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

furtonb — Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:45:51 GMT

If someone hasn"t seen it yet:
https://www.aecmag.com/comment-mainmenu-36/2046-autodesk-aec-customers-demand-better-value?fbclid=IwAR1FO4s4xlLhjUspQCiXcjp7Rbp2DhmIudIsbWCda7Jm5p0RN6M1QpHBRdg

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Bricklyne Clarence — Sat, 01 Aug 2020 22:05:21 GMT

That's not going to happen (IMHO) for the simple reason that a lot of the issues that those firms are raising in that letter about Autodesk are pretty much the same issues that people already have with Graphisoft and ArchiCAD on this side.

Read the actual letter and exchange "Autodesk" for "Graphisoft (...or Nemetschek)" and "Revit" for "ArchiCAD", and see if the complaints don't ring true for the most parts.

Here's just one example where I've taken the liberty to do exactly just that and see

(Question 3)
'Graphisoft' has tabled a variety of initiatives for the next generation of....
of 'ArchiCAD' but failed to prioritise investment and failed to
communicate the roadmap* for the delivery of a viable platform to users.

In another part they say this......

"Project productivity in architectural and engineering practices is hit daily
because of the lack of scalability and product performance, which then
require sophisticated and practice specific ‘work arounds’."

Sound familiar?

(bolding mine, for emphasis.
Everyone here is well familiar with the concept of "work arounds" in ArchiCAD)
*....and there's literally another thread right now and right on this forum where the issue of a roadmap (or lack thereof of one from Graphisoft) has come up)

Other than the high licensing fees and ridiculous subscription payment model (which,.....frankly speaking who's to say we're not that far away from ourselves here?), most of those other issues could apply to even THIS latest version release of AC.
Nobody wants to be reminded of that and when you bring it up a lot of people here get upset or make jokes about it.

Otherwise why hasn't anyone on the GS side capitalized on it yet?
Isn't that the sort of thing you'd jump on if you knew you were on superior footing?

At least the people Autdesk side (the customers and clients) are doing something about it and something vocal enough.
They do have some big guns and big voices to help them do so, though.
We don't have the Zaha Hadids, the Grimshaws and the Stirks, Rogers', the Harbour and Partners et al.... to help us make the point.
(We used to have the Barke Ingels and the B.I.G.'s and the likes but they're no longer ArchiCAD users. Maybe there's something to that.)

Perhaps this all explains why Graphisoft's current strategy seems to be to cater primarily (and almost exclusively) to those sort of "big name" firms and large firms writ large, and the type of customers with the sort of clout that if they were to raise a stink about it, it would be news beyond the just our own little corner of the profession and then you'd really stand a good chance of getting things changed.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Brett Brown — Sun, 02 Aug 2020 01:34:02 GMT

Bricklyne wrote:

Perhaps this all explains why Graphisoft's current strategy seems to be to cater primarily (and almost exclusively) to those sort of "big name" firms and large firms writ large, and the type of customers with the sort of clout that if they were to raise a stink about it, it would be news beyond the just our own little corner of the profession and then you'd really stand a good chance of getting things changed.

I thought exactly the same thing, and to see these new users bring it up and think Graphisoft was any better made me laugh.
A point in case was the user who referenced recently many 15 years old wishes (only a tiny amount that's been asked for) that if done would make our days so much more productive and enjoyable.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

jl_lt — Sun, 02 Aug 2020 02:53:13 GMT

Most of the offices shown in the letter, if not all, are high end practices, but whats interesting is that in many cases, according to the projects shown in their websites (very high quality but down to earth), there is a chance they could probably be better off using Archicad than Revit.

Do they really automate everything that much with Revit? (My Guess is they don't, if that was the case they wouldnt have written this kind of letter. Please correct me if im wrong)
Other than MEP integration and Dynamo (something in which Graphisoft seems to be trying to close the gap), does anyone know what Revit offers at this level of Architectural practice that Archidad doesnt? why insist so much in Revit?
Or is it a legal matter? some practices didnt even want to put their names because they were afraid of who knows what

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Anonymous — Mon, 03 Aug 2020 11:52:21 GMT

Honestly, I don't think that those guys that signed that letter are concerned or wants:

A vision, roadmap and investment strategy that targets adding value
and performance for design based organisations that prioritises the
replacement of Revit from the ground up to reflect the functionality
needed for a 21st century digital industry

A commitment to continuously improving application, and
industry interoperability (including IFC) as well as expanding
geometry support and alignment to international data standards.

Engagement to build a cultural partnership with all customers
based on trust, empathy and respect.

Research and development commitment that is, focused on the
needs of the global design community.

They just want to reduce their software bill Period!

I don't think those guys are concerned about their BIM Slaves unpleasant Revit experience at all.

And did you notice that those are mostly UK Firms?
They are just facing the mother of all crises... COVID-19 AND Brexit.
Probably they are negotiating with Autodesk for months and they simply didn't get any discount in their price policy. And now are publishing this letter as a way to put some social pressure on Autodesk to achieve some financial relieve.

Personally I don't care if Revit user will go to AC or not. GS has well survived for all these years without them, right?

What I want, is to see AC being developed to face the challenges of today and the future. And I think they are doing a great job on this matter with the resources they have. I also agree that the late developments didn't put on small firms that smile on the face that we were used to. But come on guys! We all know that AC is hands down the best BIM software on the market... It just needs now a little push on some productivity and UI issues to achieve perfection.

And now that the GS has done the dirty work of preparing AC for the future challenges, lets wait for more good news (I am sure they are coming) and try to be more constructive here. Instead of harshly criticize each others opinion/view just because they doesn't match yours, why not just focus on proposing solutions for AC issues and share our knowledge with less experienced users?
My 2 cents.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

jl_lt — Mon, 03 Aug 2020 16:02:21 GMT

Braza wrote:

I don't think those guys are concerned about their BIM Slaves unpleasant Revit experience at all.

Almost choked with my morning cereal reading this

People demand good screens and good chairs at their jobs for the sake of ergonomics. So why not the same with software?

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

schagemann — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 00:59:23 GMT

If anything this letter might at least help to put the changing to REVIT requests to rest - because some client lobbied by AUTODESK consultants demands it...

Quite frankly all tools have their limitations, and if you reach the workaround stage then you are on a good path to master your tool and contribute to its development... although it is frustrating when you are seemingly not being heard for years on even the most fundamental feature requests!

Having said that I really feel for the first time in a long time, that change is afoot.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

jl_lt — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 03:55:12 GMT

Hence my proposal of curating some wishes and focusing our efforts on say, 15-25 things that, if implemented would radically improve Archicads productivity, no matter if you are a super high end architectural practice or a one man show. Because, who knows how they handle the wish list at Graphisoft? for all we know they throw some darts on the list and work on whatever the dart lands on.

(Also, i think we could benefit from getting rid of that small office-big office dichotomy. I´ve known 1 or 2 men practices for whom i have much more respect than some multinational practices.)

Anyway, I have met some resistance with this curating effort, but i still think is a good proposal if we actually do want to see some changes FAST. For example: Mr. Braza recently proposed handling all of your template attributes in a separate file so everything is always updated. So simple and yet trascendental stuff that would benefit and save EVERYONE of us. Personally, i think Mr. Braza´s proposal should be in this 15-25 item list without question.

The How, who, which, why items are selected to create this "essential items that should already be there but arent" (popularly known as EITSABTBA) is open for debate.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Nader Belal — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 09:18:44 GMT

@jl_lt

People demand good screens and good chairs at their jobs for the sake of ergonomics. So why not the same with software?

Those people can demand those changes in their jobs but not the programs.

@Braza

They just want to reduce their software bill Period!

Actually I think the same, cause if for all those years they hadn't said anything about all those issues before, then either they weren't caring about all those issues, or they have a really big problem of blindness and critical thinking regarding BIM software.

If you want another proof, just take BIG (Bjarke Ingels Group), they used to use ArchiCAD for their projects, even Graphisoft webpage used to have a video of their BIM manager at the time talking about the advantages of using ArchiCAD, but few years ago they made the switch to Revit, so you can expect that they have a decent working experiance with the two BIM platforms, and yet, you can see its name in the open letter.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

jl_lt — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 15:21:49 GMT

The irony with BIG is that the guy that appeared in the videos is actually a world class Revit user

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Bricklyne Clarence — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 18:44:03 GMT

Braza wrote:
........

And did you notice that those are mostly UK Firms?
They are just facing the mother of all crises... COVID-19 AND Brexit.
Probably they are negotiating with Autodesk for months and they simply didn't get any discount in their price policy. And now are publishing this letter as a way to put some social pressure on Autodesk to achieve some financial relieve.

Personally I don't care if Revit user will go to AC or not. GS has well survived for all these years without them, right?

Is the implication here (or your assumption) that American (or North American) firms or South American firms or Asian firms don't have any issues or problems with Revit and it's just UK firms?
Because I'm willing to bet that if that's what you're insinuating, you're wrong.
I have colleagues that use Revit in their firms and they voice the same kinds of concerns that these firms raised in this letter and COVID and Brexit has nothing to do with their problems.
Maybe the pandemic is bringing into sharper focus the harsher financial reality that everyone will face when the true impact on the economy that the lockdowns will have is going to hit, but that's something that's affecting everybody and not just UK architects and designers.
It's a 'Pandemic', meaning it's affecting the entire planet.

And as for pricing, who wouldn't have a problem with having to continuously pay a high price for a product that they felt wasn't meeting their expectations for what they expected in return for its perceived value?
So what if they want to reduce their software bill?
You wouldn't want to pay less for your license if it wasn't meeting your expectations in terms of what you want?
Alternatively wouldn't you be happier if you were getting MORE for what you're paying now in terms of better features, better and more responsiveness from GS and just overall better return on your investment and value for money?
Isn't that what a good business seeks to do anyway? Under any circumstance?

Braza wrote:
.........
And now that the GS has done the dirty work of preparing AC for the future challenges, lets wait for more good news (I am sure they are coming) and try to be more constructive here. Instead of harshly criticize each others opinion/view just because they doesn't match yours, why not just focus on proposing solutions for AC issues and share our knowledge with less experienced users?
My 2 cents.

Why is it that anytime people bring up LEGITIMATE issues and problems with the program we're just accuse of being negative or "harshly criticizing" people whose opinion doesn't match your own, when you seemingly don't even bother to note whether there's real concern in why the complaints are being made.

Are we just supposed to do nothing bu sing praises of Graphisoft and ArchiCAD all the time and pretend like we're happy with what we see is the direction its taking just because it will make you happy?
People propose solutions here....ALL THE TIME...and its like we're talking to a brick wall. Especially when you see them releasing a version that's ALMOST entirely dedicated to professionals who are not even in Architecture in terms of its new features and innovations.
And people are just supposed to be happy with that?

I don't understand why when you point out an obvious fact,...you're "negative".

It just seems bizarre.

You mean there are not enough apologists and relentless cheerleaders on here that we all have to follow suit and think and talk in lockstep?
What sort of world is that?

You seem to have much lower expectations than those of use who've been using this software for a long time and long enough to know what the dangers of complacency and the slow creep of development stagnation portend like a frog sitting at the bottom of a saucepan of slowly boiling water. And you know what? That's fine.
Everyone can calibrate their expectations based on what they need and expect and want, I suppose.
All I'll ask is that you don't minimize and diminish or otherwise ridicule those of use who may not see it the same way you do.
If you're happy with things as they are, I'm happy for you.
I truly am.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Bricklyne Clarence — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 18:57:16 GMT

Moonlight wrote:
.......

Actually I think the same, cause if for all those years they hadn't said anything about all those issues before, then either they weren't caring about all those issues, or they have a really big problem of blindness and critical thinking regarding BIM software.....

To be fair, you don't know for a fact that they haven't been complaining on their end about those issues in their forums and through their individual correspondence with Autodesk all these years and have just not been getting the feedback they hope for (lack of feedbck IS after all, one of the issues they bring up in the letter).
Perhaps after years of doing so with no results they decided to finally band together to give their collective voice more weight by writing this letter and publishing it in a very public manner and given all the attention its garnered (to the tune of no less than the top guy at Autodesk himself responding and Autodesk themselves as a company having responded publicly twice so far), it would seem this tactic worked.

When was the last time you heard or read the Top executive (any of them) at Graphisoft or Nemetschek respond to a major issue that users had either with a particular version or even to a wider systemic concern?
The last that I can honestly remember was way back in ArchiCAD version 9 - after the release of the disastrous version 8.0 (followed up very quickly by version 8.1 to clean up), and that was to give their commitment to having a better process going forward with regards to testing new versions and quality assurance.
Since then.....Nothing.
Not even last years 6-7 month delayed release (depending on your locality).

So the assumption I guess is supposed to be that ArchiCAD users are blissfully happy with their product and have no problems at all whatsoever because there's no equivalent of such a public letter openly excoriating Graphisoft from high-profile users and big name firms?

We can all see how 'dissenters' are regarded on here, so what would be the benefit on their end to do so?
As far as Graphisoft are concerned the 'Big boy' firms are "happy" and that's all they're concerned about since the rest of us will presumably pay for whatever we get.
And upon consideration I have to concede that that's not a bad business plan if that's the case.

But geeez....

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Bricklyne Clarence — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 19:02:53 GMT

Brett wrote:
.......

I thought exactly the same thing, and to see these new users bring it up and think Graphisoft was any better made me laugh.
A point in case was the user who referenced recently many 15 years old wishes (only a tiny amount that's been asked for) that if done would make our days so much more productive and enjoyable.

....and I tried to point out to him that almost none of those things had actually been addressed.
And the fact that he brings up a nearly 15 year old post showing those kinds of wishes and nearly none of them addressed, while trying to make the point that they could make your life better......kind of DEFEATS his point that everything is fine to begin with,....and makes the reverse point that they (GS) really are not listening.

And of course, the irony on top of the triple-decker irony ice-cream cheesecake is his larger point that a roadmap by Graphisoft would not be necessary in light of all that.

Go figure.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Nader Belal — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 20:05:36 GMT

Bricklyne wrote:

Moonlight wrote:
.......

Actually I think the same, cause if for all those years they hadn't said anything about all those issues before, then either they weren't caring about all those issues, or they have a really big problem of blindness and critical thinking regarding BIM software.....
To be fair, you don't know for a fact that they haven't been complaining on their end about those issues in their forums and through their individual correspondence with Autodesk all these years and have just not been getting the feedback they hope for (lack of feedbck IS after all, one of the issues they bring up in the letter).
Perhaps after years of doing so with no results they decided to finally band together to give their collective voice more weight by writing this letter and publishing it in a very public manner and given all the attention its garnered (to the tune of no less than the top guy at Autodesk himself responding and Autodesk themselves as a company having responded publicly twice so far), it would seem this tactic worked.

It's true what you say, but come on, with all the money those firms are putting on the table in terms of licences just for Revit (not counting other products), and Autodesk not giving them the attention they require ... it's like Autodesk it actively shooting itself on the knee.

Or Autodesk have became an ipso facto monopoly, and what we are seeing is only a price tag negotiation.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Laszlo Nagy — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 20:48:54 GMT

Two corrections:

Bricklyne wrote:
Perhaps after years of doing so with no results they decided to finally band together to give their collective voice more weight by writing this letter and publishing it in a very public manner and given all the attention its garnered (to the tune of no less than the top guy at Autodesk himself responding and Autodesk themselves as a company having responded publicly twice so far), it would seem this tactic worked.

The top guy at Autodesk DID NOT respond. The answer was written by a person responsible for Revit development (Amy Bunszel), not the CEO:
https://adsknews.autodesk.com/views/reply-to-open-letter-on-revit

Bricklyne wrote:
Not even last year's 6-7 month delayed release (depending on your locality).

Archicad 23 INT WAS NOT released 6-7 months delayed.
Previous Archicad versions were usually released in June of their respective year. Archicad 23 was released in September 2019 instead of June, which is 3 months.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

jl_lt — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 21:46:59 GMT

Hi, hi, hi, Mr. Bricklyne! you trully have something for everyone dont you? and yet, i think your last post actually lies the true answer for many problems: Revit users united (high profile users that is) and did something, whilst Archicad users, not so much.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

jl_lt — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 21:58:56 GMT

ohh yeah, i still think the roadmap would be nice, but pointless to most people, starting with Graphisoft. Having said that,, you already pointed out the benefits of the roadmap (which i agree with as a general business procedure), but we are yet to hear a proposal on how to make Graphisoft actually post it (just "wanting them to post it" is not a proposal)

Personally, i say direct action (user pressure) is better than passively knowing whats coming (roadmap) anyway. these concepts are not mutually exclusive of course, but if i needed to pick one i would always go with the former. As an option, we can wait another 15 years.

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Aug 2020 12:07:06 GMT

Bricklyne wrote:
Is the implication here (or your assumption) that American (or North American) firms or South American firms or Asian firms don't have any issues or problems with Revit and it's just UK firms?
Because I'm willing to bet that if that's what you're insinuating, you're wrong.

Come on Bricklyne! Do you really think this? It is almost an insult. "Right in the nuts"

Bricklyne wrote:
And as for pricing, who wouldn't have a problem with having to continuously pay a high price for a product that they felt wasn't meeting their expectations for what they expected in return for its perceived value?
So what if they want to reduce their software bill?
You wouldn't want to pay less for your license if it wasn't meeting your expectations in terms of what you want?
Alternatively wouldn't you be happier if you were getting MORE for what you're paying now in terms of better features, better and more responsiveness from GS and just overall better return on your investment and value for money?
Isn't that what a good business seeks to do anyway? Under any circumstance?

Second one in the nuts.
My point is: Before this crisis, those firms had A LOT of revenues that allowed them to pay the bill and the BIM slaves to deal with the sh**. They didn't mind paying a high price for low product for decades. And now they are posing as the guardians of the Open BIM and a fair AEC software community. IMO these guys don't represent the Revit Users Community at all. But of course the angry is in the air.
The thing is: Revit users have a looong wait to Autodesk fix the loads of sh** in Revit, and Archicad users don´t, due to the background work that has been done by GS for at least 10 years. But we will see.

Bricklyne wrote:
Why is it that anytime people bring up LEGITIMATE issues and problems with the program we're just accuse of being negative or "harshly criticizing" people whose opinion doesn't match your own, when you seemingly don't even bother to note whether there's real concern in why the complaints are being made.

Again: You have lots of fair points in the content of your posts. But the form you choose to express your ideas, by taking it almost to a personal attack is toxic.

Bricklyne wrote:
You seem to have much lower expectations than those of use who've been using this software for a long time and long enough to know what the dangers of complacency and the slow creep of development stagnation portend like a frog sitting at the bottom of a saucepan of slowly boiling water. And you know what? That's fine.

This one was on the belly!

Look Bricklyne. I am not being complacent. I just think that we have to focus on the solution and not the problem.
Perhaps you are just trying to apply that "Good Cop vs Bad Cop" approach with GS (?). Ok you don't have to answer.

Cheers,

Re: Autodesk letter and archicad opportunities

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 06 Aug 2020 17:54:02 GMT

Braza wrote:
...
Come on Bricklyne! Do you really think this? It is almost an insult. "Right in the nuts"

Yes.
I do.
The idea that people in North America or elsewhere around the world outside Europe using Revit have as many problems with the programs as the ones raised in that letter by those firms is neither outlandish, a stretch of logic nor a bizarre notion.
And that's even beyond the anecdotal claims I've heard from Revit users myself regarding it.

I'm not really sure where the insult is in me pointing it out.

Your implication, or rather the implication in your comment was that the firms behind that letter were complaining only because the problems they were experiencing were either specific to them based on their region (being mostly British and European firms and because of Brexit and COVID-19) and therefore not indicative of wider systemic issues that other people elsewhere also had with it - which is what I disagreed with.

Braza wrote:
......
The thing is: Revit users have a looong wait to Autodesk fix the loads of sh** in Revit, and Archicad users don´t, due to the background work that has been done by GS for at least 10 years. But we will see.

Are you serious?
There are problems and shortcomings in ArchiCAD that have existed in the programs for far longer than Revit has existed as a program at all and which people have been begging Graphisoft to do something about.
Also, are we really holding ourselves to the standard of,... "...well, Revit users have it much much worse and Revit has more problems that Autodesk won't fix, so whatever is wrong with ArchiCAD by comparison,....it's fine."?

And look, you don't like my criticism of Graphisoft, or (some of their decisions in) their development of ArchiCAD (...and to be fair, a lot of people here don't. I'm not blind to that), and you think I seem to personally attack people or am toxic when all I'm trying to do is express the frustration that clearly a lot of people are feeling about the same issues I'm raising, but maybe not being as vocal. And like I said, that's fine. Everyone is allowed a difference of opinion, or at least should be in an open society, and to see things differently.
But by the same vein you don't have to read or respond to any of my comments or remarks you deem to be "toxic" or "personally attacking" anyone and vice versa.
I honestly can not for the life of me see whom you think I personally attacked in this discourse, but whatever...I'm not going to try to change your perception of me nor do I have any desire to, and if I'm being honest, I easily could have taken the route of taking personal offense at some of the things you've said about my comments, but there's nothing to be gained from such a tit-for-tat sort of exchange, it's not productive and just a waste of time in my opinion.

Hopefully we can respectfully disagree and go about our own separate ways instead of making this about myself or you, when my focus is trying to be on the program itself.
So I'm just going to draw a line under it at this point and we can both move on.