topic Re: Handrail ending in Modeling

Handrail ending

agroni — Thu, 25 May 2023 15:32:34 GMT

I have been searching the forum for a specific matter concerning the handrail tool.
Maybe it is a specific modelling case based on specific norms in Austria/Germany, hence did not find a solution. I am talking about the endings of the handrail. In the beginning and ending, the handrail must be extended by 30cm. Of course, the 30cm cannot be higher than 90cm from the floor, because it is against the regulations.

I have managed to extend the handrail by 30cm, but only starting from the endpoint of the reference line or the first raiser of the stair. This extension lies above the 90cm! See green annotation.
With the red annotations I have demonstrated how the proper handrail should be modelled. In the settings of the handrail I did not find an option to extend the handrail beyond the reference line, until it reaches 90cm from the floor!

Hopefully there is an option to model this kind of handrail and also with the possibility to save it as a favorite. I am dealing with a high rise building with many stairwells. Modelling each handrail separately will already be a huge task, but the changes to the stairwell will for sure cause an enormous amount of invested time. This I want to avoid.

Does anyone have an ingenious solution?

Re: Handrail ending

Richard Morrison — Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:06:40 GMT

Please add your version of AC to your signature. The solution in AC21 will be very different than in AC20, for example.

Re: Handrail ending

agroni — Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:25:45 GMT

Richard wrote:
Please add your version of AC to your signature. The solution in AC21 will be very different than in AC20, for example.

well, handrail is a new element starting from AC21, so i thought it would be clear.
Anyway i am working on AC21 4022

I am talking about using the defaul handrail tool in AC21

Re: Handrail ending

Richard Morrison — Sun, 25 Feb 2018 18:41:18 GMT

Does the handrail extension parameter not work for you? (See attached) Also, you might want to try the latest update as there were a number of fixes to stairs in it.

Re: Handrail ending

agroni — Sun, 25 Feb 2018 19:17:22 GMT

Richard wrote:
Does the handrail extension parameter not work for you?

Sadly no. The parameter that you've changes the length of the handrail starting from the reference line.
In my case (my image) see the green dimension with 30cm. It extends the handrail, but saddly in the wrong height.

Re: Handrail ending

Richard Morrison — Sun, 25 Feb 2018 21:02:52 GMT

So I was able to achieve what you are looking for through a negative value in the "Ending Node Offset" parameter, although that may not be what GS intended. Hope that helps.

Re: Handrail ending

agroni — Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:33:58 GMT

Richard wrote:
So I was able to achieve what you are looking for through a negative value in the "Ending Node Offset" parameter, although that may not be what GS intended. Hope that helps.

Wow, looks promising what you did here.
But I have a stupid question: how did you manage to open the option for the Node Settings???? In my case it is locked and I can't seem to get it open....

Re: Handrail ending

Richard Morrison — Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:20:16 GMT

Sorry, I don't know how to help you. I just selected a handrail that was attached to a stair and opened it. But certainly update to the 5021 build, if you haven't already.

Re: Handrail ending

Laszlo Nagy — Mon, 26 Feb 2018 18:41:27 GMT

It is possible to do. I have attached 2 screenshot, the first one shows the Starting state of the Railing, the second one shows the result. I show them in and Elevation Viewpoint because I can then show you exact distances and dimensions.
What you need to know that the Railing can consist of multiple Segments as defined by the Railing Reference Line, and the height of each segment is the same by default as set in the settings dialog. However, in Edit Mode you can display Segments and Nodes, then select individual segments and modify their Segment Height.

After you have placed a Railing that is associated to a Stair, you can add new nodes to the Railing. These new Nodes may or may not be associated to an element but the existing Nodes of the Railing will stay associated to their host Stair.

So, in an Elevation parallel with the Railing, select the Railing, click the lowest Node and use the "Continue Railing" Pet Palette command to move that node to achieve the Nodes shown on the second image. You need to create the new Node one Going distance to the left, so if your Going Depth is 350 mm, you have to create it 350 mm to the left. This is the point where the sloped Railing Reference Line Segment intersects the finish floor level.
Then use the command again to create another Node to the left again, creating a horizontal Railing Reference Line Segment; make it 500-600 mm to the left, we will adjust it later.

Now, go to 3D. We will need to do the next step in 3D because that is where Railing Segments and Nodes can be displayed. In 3D, select the Railing and enter Edit Mode. In the Edit Palette in the upper right, click "Segments and Nodes" to display them.
Click the leftmost segment (the horizontal Railing Reference Line segment) and in the Info Box or the Settings Dialog you can modify the Railing Segment Height to 900 mm. Then Exit Edit Mode.

Now, all is left is to adjust the position of the End Node of the Railing Reference Line so that the horizontal Top Railing length is exactly 300 mm. Go back to the Elevation View and on the second images you will see how I calculated where that End Node needs to be. You can Move this End Node with the Pet Palette command to its desired position.

Re: Handrail ending

agroni — Tue, 27 Feb 2018 09:43:22 GMT

Thanx, Laszlo for the detailed explanation.
Your method works, bud sadly I am stumbling upon some obstacles which don’t look very nice.

Manual extension of the line prohibits the creation of a favorite to make it possible to place this type or railing in 20 other floors without editing the reference line. I already have the stairs placed since a long time, and by deleting them in each floor I will lose my dimensioning. So I cannot simple make one stair with an associative handrail and copy it on the other floors. Is there an easier way of copying this element an associating it with the stair?
There is a mistake in the floor plan presentation when I extend the reference line of the handrail. In the elevation the total length is 590cm, whereas on the floor plan is 660cm.

Re: Handrail ending

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 27 Feb 2018 21:00:09 GMT

agroni wrote:
Thanx, Laszlo for the detailed explanation.
Your method works, bud sadly I am stumbling upon some obstacles which don’t look very nice.

Manual extension of the line prohibits the creation of a favorite to make it possible to place this type or railing in 20 other floors without editing the reference line. I already have the stairs placed since a long time, and by deleting them in each floor I will lose my dimensioning. So I cannot simple make one stair with an associative handrail and copy it on the other floors. Is there an easier way of copying this element an associating it with the stair?

I am sorry to say but the Favorites cannot store these kinds of customizations. A Favorite can store the height of Segments, but it cannot store the number of segments with their exact length and heights and all their geometry and customization, I believe.

There is a mistake in the floor plan presentation when I extend the reference line of the handrail. In the elevation the total length is 590cm, whereas on the floor plan is 660cm.

Looks like the Railing is longer on both ends by the same distance. Could you check in the Ends page of the Dialog whether there is value specified in the Extension or the Horizontal Offset fields?

Re: Handrail ending

Barry Kelly — Wed, 28 Feb 2018 01:27:04 GMT

Railings will only automatically associate with a stair when you first place a stair with the railing option active.

After that if the stair already exists you must place a new railing by selecting the nodes you want (make sure the 'associate node' setting is on for the rail default settings).

Or you can copy and paste then drag a node away from the stair and then back to the stair and it should become associated.

Favourites will not remember the shape or extent of the railing (or stairs).
It only saves the settings that make up the pattern of the railing.
You must still pick the points you want it to associate to.

Barry.

Re: Handrail ending

agroni — Wed, 28 Feb 2018 15:28:32 GMT

LaszloNagy wrote:
Looks like the Railing is longer on both ends by the same distance. Could you check in the Ends page of the Dialog whether there is value specified in the Extension or the Horizontal Offset fields?

Yeap, there was one hidden parameter with 30cm
Thanx

Re: Handrail ending

Karoly Horvath — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 02:42:03 GMT

Guys, I have the same problem in Australia.
I am quite sure it is the same in every country.
This is a simple geometry problem that seems to have been overlooked at the development of the stair tool.
In every regulation (I know Hungary, Irieland, UK, Australia, Germany, Austria for sure) the aim is to provide a railing that is consistent height above the walking line of the stair. This height typically has tp continue onto the landing / half landing. (the UK has some funny rules here, but the principles apply)
In order to achieve a consistant height, you have to extend your stair flight with anextra going at the bottom of the flight. (The walking line should not turn down to follow the riser, but continue at constant angle till it reaches the landing)
This should be a setting in the railing tool, not a manual editing option.
The geometry gets really tricky when you have an inner handrail, but that is a different story.
Agroni's request to add this setting to the favourite is very important. Please remember, some of us are working on large projects, not on one off houses. 🙂 In large projects we have loads of identical / similar stairs that require railings. The last thing you want to do is to edit each railing individually, when a simple rule based parameter could solve the problem.

What I discovered is that ARCHICAD gets totally confused with this extension if the stair is not parallel with the AC grid. Especially if the angle is very small.
I will test Richard's work around. I hope it works.