topic Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings in Modeling

Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Thu, 25 May 2023 16:19:10 GMT

I've been trying to figure this one out for some time, and I've come up with some workarounds, but I'm wondering what the proper way to accomplish this is.

The scenario: There is an existing exterior wall of varying thicknesses, which needs to be furred out with studs and drywall. Normally, we show the existing walls with a solid fill and independent of the new construction (so we can pull demo drawings, etc). The new walls would then be composites, and would be added right next to the existing walls.

All works great so far. Problem comes when you try to insert a door or a window. If you insert it into the existing wall (as it is with existing openings), the furring wall covers them up, and the same is true if you insert it into the furring wall - not correct, but... The only way this seems to work is if you insert it into the exterior wall, and insert an "opening" in the furring wall. I suppose this would work, but the window won't detail appropriately, and if the window size was to change, the opening doesn't update automatically.

So is there a correct way to deal with this, is there a "correct" workaround, or... any ideas? Help is much appreciated.

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:09:43 GMT

I've done like you are describing for new construction were I have a High concrete stem wall within the living area (say 24" up from Finished floor), a framed wall with openings above stem wall. Then I place a Furring wall on the Subfloor and add the "fake" openings.

For Remodels I leave the existing wall on a "Walls (Existing.dem)" layer and create a Copy on the "Walls A" layer (this is a new construction layer). Modify the copied wall to be the Thicker Composite wall and modify any changed openings. Make sure that al you intersection numbers are set up properly for Demo plan views and New Construction views.

The only problem that I have had with the 2 wall occupying the same location, is when each of the walls contains a Wall Accessory veneer. New Work around for that......

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:58:15 GMT

Jay wrote:
...a framed wall with openings above stem wall. Then I place a Furring wall on the Subfloor and add the "fake" openings.

We haven't had any issues with new construction. We end up modeling things as we want them to look and since we can control all the dimensions, there's no problems. As for renovation projects, we've pretty much tried to stayed away from the "fake" openings, though there's been places where we had no options.

For Remodels I leave the existing wall on a "Walls (Existing.dem)" layer and create a Copy on the "Walls A" layer (this is a new construction layer). Modify the copied wall to be the Thicker Composite wall and modify any changed openings.

And what do you do if the project is on the larger side with walls with varying widths throughout? Do you make yourself a separate wall for each condition? Gets to be a bit of a tougher work-around. That was actually the only other option we were thinking about, and we're trying to avoid this one also (kind of a tie with the "fake opening" one).

The only problem that I have had with the 2 wall occupying the same location, is when each of the walls contains a Wall Accessory veneer. New Work around for that......

Haven't dealt with veneers yet. Had not so great experiences when we were experimenting with them for the interior (and some exterior work) wo we try to stay away from them. As for the intersection priorities, it's the only way to go. It's actually part of our standards.

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:37:04 GMT

Sergio wrote:
And what do you do if the project is on the larger side with walls with varying widths throughout?

I don't know if I understand. If you have a wall line with existing walls of different widths Group The walls that are to be modified and leave them on a "Existing (to Demo)" Layer. Copy walls to New Layer and Change.

If any part of the wall is to be modified then original wall is on the "Existing (to Demo)" Layer and the modified copy is on the "New Wall" layer (or just plan Wall Layer). If NO part of the wall is to be modified then original wall is on the "Existing (to Remain)" Layer.

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:31:12 GMT

Jay wrote:
I don't know if I understand.

Yeah, I get this every once in a while...

Let me see if I can illustrate better. Say you have a square building with solid masonry bearing walls. North and South walls measure out to 1'-1", the East wall measures out to 1'-3" (probably measurements were off), and the West wall is 10". All of these walls would need to be furred out on the inside.

Do you now make 3 different wall composite types? What if some of the exterior walls don't need to be furred out because it's a mechanical room? Just split the wall at that location (so the exterior wall ends up being bits and pieces of walls? Maybe I should've wished for a solution to this earlier... or maybe there already IS a solution...

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:18:37 GMT

Sounds like this has less to do with separating Existing from new and any new openings, and more like a situation of how to model buildings with walls that need to be furred out.

So on furred out walls I am, like I said before, creating one wall with window and/or door opening and a Furring Wall with Empty Openings to match.

My Fur out situation are almost always do to a Stem wall Modeled on the level Below has to extend (as retaining wall) up past the Finished Floor. I usually have some portion of Wood framed wall above this wall.

Modeling a building with an Existing Full Masonry wall from Finished floor to ceiling, and the New Construction involves adding Furred walls to some portions of walls, in order to not have a "fake" wall, yes I would split the Wall (say at the Utility Room) and copy portion of wall that is to be furred out to a "new construction" wall layer. Change this copy from a Masonry wall to a Composite wall that you want. (pre-packaged or create your own Composite with the Masonry wall, Airgap, and the Insulation/furring and whatever else you want).

Edit: With different Furring dimension, yes you will have different Compositses

If "Frame Depth=Wall Thickness" is set to on for the dors and windows in the wall then the Jams will "grow" to match the new Thicker composite wall.

Is this at all clear?

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:23:34 GMT

Wouldn't it be nice if you could have variable widths for your composite walls? Adjust the widths in wall settings instead of in Composites......

Anybody care to make a wish? (for AC11?)

Frame depth = wall thickness

Anonymous — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 04:50:27 GMT

Where is the setting for "Frame depth=Wall Thickness"?

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 05:25:45 GMT

s2art wrote:
Wouldn't it be nice if you could have variable widths for your composite walls? Adjust the widths in wall settings instead of in Composites......

Anybody care to make a wish? (for AC11?)

Not me. (I'm not sure what it would mean to vary the width of a composite? The skins presumably correspond to some actual materials. Which skin(s) would you thicken/shrink and how would that be interpretted?)

I model extensively with composites, as they allow for a huge amount of detail to be created quickly.

Composites are the closest thing that we have to "styles" in ArchiCAD. If all walls of similar construction are built with the same composite, and the construction of those walls changes ... you merely modify the composite, and all walls are changed. With ordinary fills, you have to find each of those walls, select them, and then make the modification.

"Styles" as in layout programs such as InDesign and web design (css) are hugely powerful, helping avoid errors and increasing productivity. I want to see more of this, not less (my wish).

Again, I don't understand what variable widths could mean (or depths for slabs/roofs) in a real-material sense?

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 13:51:02 GMT

I think what we really need is a unify wall comand, maybe I'm crazy.. but that just makes sense to me.

cheers,
dan

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:34:30 GMT

Karl wrote:
s2art wrote:
Wouldn't it be nice if you could have variable widths for your composite walls? Adjust the widths in wall settings instead of in Composites......

Anybody care to make a wish? (for AC11?)
Not me. (I'm not sure what it would mean to vary the width of a composite?...)

I think the idea was to have ONE skin or material that would be changeable, which would be the "existing" wall and would be adjustable to conditions in field. However, I think Daniel might be onto something.

Daniel wrote:
I think what we really need is a unify wall comand, maybe I'm crazy.. but that just makes sense to me.

Though I can't think of how this would be implemented (would walls just "snap" together, would there be a setting,... ), I think this would at least solve some of the issues.

Another option would be for the windows/doors to be able to "span" two walls, or have an opening connect to an adjacent door/window. Get's crazy when thinking of how to implement, but then again, I'm wouldn't be programing it - this is just wishing....

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Sun, 19 Feb 2006 20:47:31 GMT

Karl wrote:
Not me. (I'm not sure what it would mean to vary the width of a composite? The skins presumably correspond to some actual materials. Which skin(s) would you thicken/shrink and how would that be interpretted?)

....

Again, I don't understand what variable widths could mean (or depths for slabs/roofs) in a real-material sense?

Cheers,
Karl

I'm not saying do away with composites, just have the settings in the Wall tool instead of as a separate entity. By combining them this way you could have walls with the same skins, but be able to set the thickness of particular skins individually for each wall if necessary instead of having to create another composite.

Eg. a typical timber framed wall with brick veneer (in NZ) would be 100mm framing, 40mm cavity and 70-90mm brick, but if you go over a certain height you need 150mm framing instead of 100mm. New composite or change a setting in the wall tool, which is easier?

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Sun, 19 Feb 2006 20:48:21 GMT

Daniel wrote:
I think what we really need is a unify wall comand, maybe I'm crazy.. but that just makes sense to me.

cheers,
dan

This is already (partly) available. A selection of connected walls will behave like a polyline (or polygon if closed). The only difference is that unify would allow single click selection.

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Tue, 21 Feb 2006 20:32:29 GMT

Matthew wrote:
A selection of connected walls will behave like a polyline (or polygon if closed). The only difference is that unify would allow single click selection.

How is this again? Is this different from the "Group" command? Can't say I've ever seen or heard of this before.

Re: Drawing new & exist. walls, with openings

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Aug 2006 08:28:21 GMT

Sergio wrote:
Another option would be for the windows/doors to be able to "span" two walls

I'm having similar problems, and windows/doors that would cut a hole through more than one wall would solve most of my problems.

But I think Stuart's idea is a good one. It would be great if, when making a new composite, you could specify a variable width to one (or more, but one would be a start) of the fills. Another idea would be to have the ability to add a skin to a wall. In my office about 99% of our work is restoring historic buildings, so there are heaps of different existing wall thicknesses. On these walls we usually apply a lining, but again, this can vary, sometimes it's 40mm, sometimes it's 70mm etc... What I'd like to be able to do is select my existing wall, and add another composite (the lining) to it, keeping all the door and window holes all neat and tidy.