topic Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes?? in Modeling

ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Anonymous — Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:19:52 GMT

Hi all!

I just joined this forum and I work at a large civil engineering company in Sweden (www.ncc.se). I have been working with ArchiCAD for several years by now mostly in R&D projects since we are deeply stuck in the 2D Autocad mud. I wonder if there are any people on this forum that uses ArchiCAD for constructional purposes rather than Architectural? I'm struggling to spread the 3D advantages and most people are interested but there's no real real life examples that ArchiCAD can be used instead of or together with Autocad when doing the construction design of a building. None of my fellow engineers get really impressed when I show them a CD filled with nice GDL-objects of furniture or plants... They want concrete stuff, steel structures etc etc... So...if you have any experience in using ArchiCAD for building construction please answer this thread or send an e-mail to me.

BTW. I use ArchiCAD 8, ArtLantis 4.0, AutoCAD 2002, 3DSViz and occasionally the marvellous Rhino.

Best regards,

Mats Knutsson

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Anonymous — Tue, 02 Dec 2003 12:13:50 GMT

Mats wrote:
They want concrete stuff, steel structures etc etc...

Even if working in 2D, you could develop good tools for the draftsmen...

I don't know the value of this, but you can find such tools at :
http://www.archiradar.com/eng/objects/03lista.htm

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Djordje — Tue, 02 Dec 2003 12:25:41 GMT

Mats wrote:
I wonder if there are any people on this forum that uses ArchiCAD for constructional purposes rather than Architectural? I'm struggling to spread the 3D advantages and most people are interested but there's no real real life examples that ArchiCAD can be used instead of or together with Autocad when doing the construction design of a building. None of my fellow engineers get really impressed when I show them a CD filled with nice GDL-objects of furniture or plants... They want concrete stuff, steel structures etc etc... So...if you have any experience in using ArchiCAD for building construction please answer this thread or send an e-mail to me.

The most obvious example for me is Japanese Kajima - you have the description of their experience on the ACUE Web site, in Bel Wallbank's report. If you talk to your reseller, I am sure they will provide you with material if possible.

One thing that is sure is that if you used ArchiCAD only for modeling (read co-ordination) the building costs will be down quite a bit. Co-odination is the most expensive part of the design process, and it usually is done drawing by drawing - the worst way, if you neglest the absolutely worst way, and that is making a lot of money for Hilti on the site ...

Most of the people here on the list do the construction documentation with ArchiCAD - it is NOT, repeat NOT 3D modeling and visualization software, as it was wrongly advertized for years. Besides, at least I think so, you are not an architect if you don't provide enough information so that your design can be built.

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Anonymous — Tue, 02 Dec 2003 12:35:54 GMT

I was rather thinking of using the 3D possibilities as much as possible. Somewhere there is a limit in the detailing beyond which it is devastatingly painful to model in 3D and where you have to use the section/detail tools instead. I can model for example in-situ concrete complete with openings (as long as things doesnt start to slope or bend...) very fast but we often use prefabricated elements and they all have antional regulations which forces me to make them myself...
I'm looking for someone who has made 2D construction drawings mainly from a 3D model in a larger project (not a small single family residential house or dog-house or such).
Just to exchange experiences and thoughts...

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Anonymous — Tue, 02 Dec 2003 13:02:20 GMT

Djordje wrote:
Besides, at least I think so, you are not an architect if you don't provide enough information so that your design can be built.

Congrats if your architects have that much construction knowledge!!!

I will check out Kajima, thanx for the tip!

I have used ArchiCAD as a tool to a faster BUILDING process (of which the design process is an early stage...imo) mainly by placing myself between the architect and the contractor and by swift and illustrative modelling try to get them to speak the same language and reach a better consensus quicker than usual. The model itself (mainly 4-7 stories residential buildings) is never " finished". It's changing all the time depending on where we are in the process. Between the project meetings I make nice visualizations for our marketing departments that keeps them happy (they don't have to buy this from other consultants).

I'm constantly seeking arguments for changing from Autocad to ArchiCAD but it's like banging my head into a brick wall over and over again. I will continue some banging but I'm pretty tired of it and would like to know and learn from others that might have done this differently/better.

Generally we don't work together in the construction process which makes it hard to use all the advantages of ArchiCAD (3D,2D, lists, visualization etc). Some Architects use Archicad but they export 2D dwg conforming with national layer standards and we don't even know the architect didn't use Autocad...

So...with one leg on the architect side and one on the construction side I'm trying not to fall in the bottomless swamp that separates two parties that really should work closer together (I got a bit philosofical here...sorry...)

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Anonymous — Wed, 03 Dec 2003 09:29:59 GMT

Hi,

In theory anything can be modelled with GDL scripts, the problem is finding someone to do it.

I work for a multidisciplinary consultants in Norway, the architects are keen to use Archicad so I was interested to see that some Architects manage to produce dwg files from Archicad that are so good that you cant tell they came from Archicad. The ones we get are quite frankly rubbish and that is the engineers main argument against our Architects adopting Archicad. How do they do it?

I have seen add ons for Archicad for reinforced concrete detailing, heating and ventilation and electrical engineers, terrain modelling. The thing they all have in common is that none are adapted for use to Norwegian Standards ( I don't know about Swedish) There is (was?) a link from Archicad to the Finite Element analysis program FEM Design from the Swedish company Skanska.

If Graphisoft want to be taken seriously as a supplier of Building Information Modelling software they need to fill these holes soon.

Regards
Mark Ratcliff
Scandiaconsult AS
www.scc.no

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Anonymous — Wed, 03 Dec 2003 09:42:17 GMT

Mark wrote:
The ones we get are quite frankly rubbish and that is the engineers main argument against our Architects adopting Archicad. How do they do it?

I have seen add ons for Archicad for reinforced concrete detailing, heating and ventilation and electrical engineers, terrain modelling. The thing they all have in common is that none are adapted for use to Norwegian Standards ( I don't know about Swedish) There is (was?) a link from Archicad to the Finite Element analysis program FEM Design from the Swedish company Skanska.

How they do it? By using the same layer standard as for example your swedish colleagues at SCC do (BH90, Point). By matching layer configurations/settings, the output from ArchiCAD looks like an AutoCAD drawing. Strusoft and LaserCAD (ArchiCAD vendor) will come to us and demonstrate FEM-design together with ArchiCAD in january. With FEM-design they say they also can manage 3D reinforcement... If it's working it's a good thing.

:)M

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Djordje — Wed, 03 Dec 2003 15:40:46 GMT

Mark wrote:
In theory anything can be modelled with GDL scripts, the problem is finding someone to do it.

Correction: In PRACTICE anything can be DESCRIBED by a GDL script (it is not only modeling, the object properties are also inside). I agree that the problem IS to find someone to do it. Especially for free, which is mostly expected.

There is something called GDL Alliance, headed by Kimon Onuma and David Nicholson Cole - IMHO both are very willing to talk to serious people about serious GDL, maybe even for serious fees. http://www.gdlalliance.com

I work for a multidisciplinary consultants in Norway, the architects are keen to use Archicad so I was interested to see that some Architects manage to produce dwg files from Archicad that are so good that you cant tell they came from Archicad.

Meaning exactly what?

AutoCAD drawing is a drawing. For the amount of information it carries, it could have been drawn by hand as well. ArchiCAD project is full of BUILDING INFORMATION, that AutoCAD drawings do not or have no means of carrying.

The ones we get are quite frankly rubbish and that is the engineers main argument against our Architects adopting Archicad. How do they do it?

Rubbish in what sense?

Layers, pen colors, etc? That means that they were not provided template files/standards by which they were expected to deliver the drawings.

Lack of construction data? That has nothing to do with the software used, but with the person(s) who do(es) the project.

Did you provide them with reference files/standards that were expected?

BTW, when an AutoCAD or anyCAD user that does not know your standards/habits/expectations sends you a DWG, that is not as you expect it to be, is it also rubbish?

If you typed your message in Norwegian, I could also say it is rubbish - it might be highest poetry, but there is no COMMUNICATION or the way that I can understand Norwegian. That is the key.

I have seen add ons for Archicad for reinforced concrete detailing, heating and ventilation and electrical engineers, terrain modelling. The thing they all have in common is that none are adapted for use to Norwegian Standards ( I don't know about Swedish) There is (was?) a link from Archicad to the Finite Element analysis program FEM Design from the Swedish company Skanska.

If Graphisoft want to be taken seriously as a supplier of Building Information Modelling software they need to fill these holes soon.

This is a good and valid point, that most probably goes to the address of the local distributor? Graphisoft invented BIM, so there is not much that can be discussed on that topic, except the implementation and marketing.

Please don't get me wrong - my point is that software in itself does absolutely nothing, while people do. The software is or is not giving people means to do something, IF they know how to do it and that they can do it.

It is too common approach that anything beyond the set of rules and regulations that an establishment works within is regarded as lesser and "rubbish". At the same time, no effort is made to communicate, except the "I am the mighty one and thou shalt obey" attitude.

Nothing personal,

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

david nicholson-cole — Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:01:16 GMT

I agree that there is a gap between model and drawing. Getting the model good enough to generate the drawing entirely can be a 90% perspiration job (and uninspiring for the other 10). and drawings generated directly from ArchiCAd without someone putting in the work on the 2D can look like rubbish - timber floors that are concrete in cross section for example. Roofs that meet walls clumsily, windows that dont have sills or lintel, no hardcore under slabs, etc.

Which is why I was so DELIGHTED to discover the DETAIL tool in ArchiCAD 8 which is a major Time saver..
Now you can model the building and only get the basic things right, eg wall heights and floor heights etc, perhaps even do away with distracting looking fills, and then just put the detail marker around all areas of constructional concern and complete the detail in 2D. Saves a lot of modelling time! the person reading the drawings then accepts that the general arrangement drawing is not purporting to be an accurate portrayal of the construction.
That, along with the newly designed Navigators in ArchiCAD and Plotmaker (which i think of as a sort of 3D Planchest) make life for the serious constructor a whole lot easier!

Mark wrote:
Hi,
In theory anything can be modelled with GDL scripts, the problem is finding someone to do it.
I work for a multidisciplinary consultants in Norway, the architects are keen to use Archicad so I was interested to see that some Architects manage to produce dwg files from Archicad that are so good that you cant tell they came from Archicad. The ones we get are quite frankly rubbish and that is the engineers main argument against our Architects adopting Archicad. How do they do it?

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Djordje — Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:48:57 GMT

Mats wrote:
I'm looking for someone who has made 2D construction drawings mainly from a 3D model in a larger project (not a small single family residential house or dog-house or such).

Is B+G+4, something in the neigbourhood of 12000 m2 enough? Send me a private message.

You might want to contacs Fender Katsalides, see details at http://www.graphisoft.com/products/archicad/eureka.html

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

SeaGeoff — Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:36:43 GMT

This is very important subject. Products like Micrsostation claim superiority over ArchiCAD because their developers provides a seamless workflow from one discipline to the next without translation. Graphisoft has chosen to counter that by being a leading voice in the development of open standards for data exchange and offering very good tools for interoperability with established products and de facto standards like DWG.

That said, I too feel that GDL is the key to ArchiCAD's success or failure in the construction marketplace. I'm glad to see David join the discussion. I had forgotten about Kimon Onuma. It's a shame he doesn't participate in these forums.

A little over a year ago I saw Kimon demonstrate some GDL objects his firm had developed. One was a complete aircraft hanger as a single object. As it was resized all the components, including the structural steel skeleton, were recalculated based on pre-established rules. For example, trusses didn't just get longer, but changed entirely to handle the increased span and load. Thus a usable BOM could be generated.

That may be an extreme example. But I think it demonstrates the power of GDL, the need for more talented GDL developers, and value of promoting GDL beyond it's role as a platform for architectural accessories.

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Ben Odonnell — Fri, 05 Dec 2003 14:50:45 GMT

Couldn't agree more with you Geoff. I personally belive that GDL is critical to the survival of ArchiCAD, this may sound drastic and over the top but I really do belive this to be the case!

Yes it's fantastic to see David getting involved in this discussion. We at Lasercad(Swedish distributor of ArchiCAD) are in a position now that we must make a decision, on a local basis, to see what we should do with the existing library. I belive we need to get other disciplines using ArchiCAD as well.
FEM is a fantastic solution and I'm confident that Mats and the group at NCC will also agree with me once they have seen it

As far as DWGs from ArchiCAD being rubbish, it couldn't be further from the truth.. More like users not knowing how to use their tool!!

Cheers.
Ben

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:05:36 GMT

Hi.
I have spent almost a year on scripting a working gdl-object to make automated drawings of precast concrete structures (mainly sandwich-walls) with list of materials on the drawing, also the reinforcements. Gets the work about 5 times faster with 5 times less mistakes. Still improving it.

By the way, no one seems to need it, engineers want their autocad drawings only.

Re: ArchiCAD for construction purposes??

Djordje — Sat, 06 Dec 2003 03:36:51 GMT

Madis wrote:
Hi.
I have spent almost a year on scripting a working gdl-object to make automated drawings of precast concrete structures (mainly sandwich-walls) with list of materials on the drawing, also the reinforcements. Gets the work about 5 times faster with 5 times less mistakes. Still improving it.

By the way, no one seems to need it, engineers want their autocad drawings only.

When the motor car was used first, there was a man walking in front of it with the red flag.

Then marketing happened.

Seems that the profession needs explaining why is something needed.