https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292880#M151143 <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />BC, first of all my whole point here was that either you trust that GS will eventually get there or you don't. You might disagree with them as we all do but using the Parasol object as an example of everything that is wrong with GS Team is kind of a bad argument.</BLOCKQUOTE> Good thing then, that that's not what I was doing.<BR /> This thread was started by someone questioning the wisdom of promoting this object as one of the new (key?) features of the new version of ArchiCAD 20.<BR /> <BR /> That's a fair question to ask since the perception they are conveying with such a video (and the playground object from last year) is that THIS is what they spend development resources on instead of what users clamor and ask for year after year - fair or not.<BR /> <BR /> You could say it's a question of judgment or the prudence of deciding to including it at all, especially if, as you postulated, it was something that may have been done for a specific client, as you do below.....<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />By some reason somebody created it and they decided to include it. I am 100% percent sure that the reasoning was not <BLOCKQUOTE>"Lets take this 20 guys from the work on the Stair Tool and make them spend the next 2 years building the Parasol and Playground objects because they are more important.</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> Fair enough, but if that's the case then you (or rather, they) would have to be prepared for the inevitable questions that will arise from showing that object that the vast majority of your users are probably neither going to use, nor even requested to have improved.<BR /> <BR /> As well as the fact that it makes users question your priorities as a developer and lessens any trust that you keep mentioning we should have, that they'll get there eventually.<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />My answer is that you need to be willing to learn how to do stuff in the same way that they had to learn how to use the Morph Tool, Change Manager and even AC and the original Stair Tool. Or the way that the RVT guys need/can to learn Dynamo and the VW guys Marionette. Right now we have multiple options on how to model our projects.<BR /> Though Dynamo and Marionette are "free" and Rhino is not I think GS solution is better since they are not wasting resources in copying but were efficiently used in connecting the Standard with the plugin free of charge. The ones that do not see the benefits of the connection do not have to pay nor do they can complain that the only benefit of ARCHICAD 20 is for something that they will never use.</BLOCKQUOTE> That's a totally different (and in many ways invalid) comparison and analogy.<BR /> <BR /> When Graphisoft introduce a new tool into ArchiCAD like the ones you are pointing out in Morph Tool or the Change Manager - these are tools WITHIN and inside the program and which exist within the program's interface and workflow environment.<BR /> It's absolutely nothing like learning a tool that's in an entirely separate program where you would have get familiar with the workspace and interface first of all, and then learn this whole other plugin that operates somewhat differently from the host program.<BR /> <BR /> Even the examples with Marionnette and Dynamo still don't fit.<BR /> Those two solutions were developed WITHIN their respective host programs as part of the environment their users are already used to.<BR /> <BR /> I'm not against learning Grasshopper or Rhino (I know how to use both) as new tools that help me get more done.<BR /> But if I'm an ArchiCAD user unfamiliar with both those programs/plugins, needing to get something done and then being told "well you can do it easily in Grasshopper. All you have to do is learn it",.. that's an entirely different proposition than telling someone they can get something done if they learn how to use the new Morph Tool in ArchiCAD.<BR /> <BR /> Plus, as much as you're arguing that if someone doesn't want to learn it or doesn't see the benefit of using it, they shouldn't worry about it - you also did suggest that one of the ways you get around the shortcomings of the tools in ArchiCAD that we're discussing, is that you basically just get the job done in Rhino or ArchiCAD.<BR /> <BR /> So someone who isn't familiar with Rhino/Grasshopper and doesn't want to learn (or doesn't have the resources or time to spend doing so) has to suffer the same shortcomings in ArchiCAD, just because?<BR /> It doesn't add up.<BR /> <BR /> It's either a solution (to ArchiCAD's shortcomings) or it isn't.<BR /> And if it is, then one can rightly ask, why the extra cost on top of what I'm already paying for? (which is a lot)<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />We also got NURBs as part of GDL now as a result of this and this opens another can of worms, hopefully in a good way.</BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, but they were forced into that.<BR /> There's no way you create a bridge or a connection to Rhino/Grasshopper unless your program can handle or efficiently read and translate NURBS geometry.<BR /> And yet users have been asking for some kind of NURBS capability in ArchiCAD for the longest time I can remember. <BR /> I literally created a post something like 10 or 12 years or so ago, even predating the existence of Grasshopper, wherein I suggested creating some sort of a bridge between ArchiCAD and Rhino that allows back and forth import of geometry into the program since at the time we really didn't have that many options at all for freeform model and geomotry creation (this was the pre-Maxonform days).<BR /> As with most things, nothing ever came of it.<BR /> <BR /> And it's only when BIG comes into the picture and they begin working on the Grasshopper bridge, do they finally consider it important.<BR /> <BR /> So what happens with the rest of us who don't have the clout of a BIG or a Helen and Hard or a Woods Bagot?<BR /> Does this mean that we have to wait until one of those Big-name Architects and Starchitects start clamoring for a better stair tool (or better windows or doors), before they begin to take it seriously or treat it with an elevated sense of urgency?<BR /> <BR /> Chances are most of them can hire a dedicated GDL coder to build them custom library objects or anything they want.<BR /> The rest of us can't.<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR /> That is the whole point, this will never happen, if it does that means that there was an unforeseen reason for it. There will be other type of mistakes during the construction. This is not a valid argument since I expect/guess that the reason we don't have the stair tool is not lack of manpower because that is an easy solution to fix. Therefore I would guess there might be other items in the list that are modifying the release date.<BR /> But in the case of the Stair tool everybody knows that it is because GS does not know how to produce architectural software and they keep doing Parasol Objects. So we get back to why should we keep using AC since we already know that they are incompetent.</BLOCKQUOTE> You're completely twisting my argument and my point.<BR /> <BR /> The example of you or I as an architect failing to deliver what our clients would expect in the form of a fully functioning building or building design, was to point out the fact that part of the reason we would never get away with delivering half-assed work is because at the end of the day it would not just harm our bottom line, but our ability to practice at all.<BR /> Consequences.<BR /> They exist for the rest of us.<BR /> <BR /> If Graphisoft deliver a half-finished tool in the particular version, the only recourse for the user is either to not use it at all, or to find some other solution as you have, while the only consequence they suffer is bad press and a couple of ranting threads by disgruntled users like this one.<BR /> The following year they'll still get their usual number of users upgrading thanks to the subscription model, or even just those same disgruntled users hoping that they fix what wasn't right in the first place, in the new version.<BR /> <BR /> Whether that's incompetence on their part or cynicism regarding their users' limited options, I don't know.<BR /> I can only speak from the perspective of someone as this end of things and from how we see them.<BR /> <BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR /> The point about this is that we all have different priorities and I don't expect that GS can match every single client at the same time. Also that GS works on stuff that I might not consider important but that eventually simplifies my workflow.<BR /> Of course that stairs as an architectural element are important in a project. It is just that since version 8 I have been able to design, model and document every type of stair I have needed in my projects. For me it is more important to be able to model something with generic tools than having a single dedicated tool for that purpose.</BLOCKQUOTE> And honestly, I'm happy for you that you're able to do that, just as I'm happy to be using a program that allows for multiple solutions and workarounds if you're not able to get the job done with the existing tools.<BR /> Except you're using the example of YOU and what you're able to do and what works for YOU.<BR /> Which isn't always the case for a majority of users.<BR /> <BR /> But having workarounds (and conversely, having to rely on them) is only as useful up until the point they begin to undercut the entire point of the program or notion of BIM ( parametric model that consistently updates information with every change and which maintains logical relationships between the various (intelligent and/or "smart") elements that define your design in a way that enhances your whole process. At least that's my defintion of it).<BR /> Having a "dumb" stair made from native construction elements that's neither parametric, nor "smart" nor has any "I" (in the BIM sense) that would be useful for documentation and changes downstream in the design process, and which pretty much reduces you to the AutoCAD drafting days, is pretty much the text-book case of where this point gets crossed. IMO.<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR /> …<BR /> <BR /> That is why I wrote what I thought are the way they prioritize their items. There has always been an item that is based on Marketing only, though sometimes we get one that do more than that and are good for Production like TW02 and the Delta Server, Change Manager, IFC.<BR /> <BR /> About CR there were always a lot of complaints about the Lightworks implementation (with reason) and we did get some that can match what we are getting for the stair tool. And for CR was integrated in 18 and updated in 20. I understand that doing renderings is not as important as building your stairs in your project.</BLOCKQUOTE> For most people it's not.<BR /> The rendering may help you win the project, but the meat of your fees will come from a correct and efficient execution and delivery of it.<BR /> <BR /> And the problem with the LW and CR examples is that they are not developed by Graphisoft itself.<BR /> LW was licensed and it's the fact that Graphisoft licensed a crippled version of it (with no radiosity and limited material manipulation option) that got on people's nerves.<BR /> CR likewise isn't developed by them but rather by their "sister" company Maxon. But it's more mature (even while we're a version behind the actual Cinema4D engine).<BR /> But we've been down this road before, of them outsourcing functions to other third-parties (remember MaxonForm? I do.).<BR /> And that's a similar peril that exists even with the Rhino/Grasshoppeer bridge (to a lesser extent).<BR /> <BR /> I'm not saying that they should spend development resources developing a new render engine or anything like that, and you could even argue that in cases like this, this route is actually the best solution since it presumably or supposedly (one would think) frees them up to work on core features of the program themselves.<BR /> But using these as examples of times they responded to users request to improve a particular tool when they tool they introduced wasn't really developed by them, is a bit skewed and misleading IMHO.<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR /> If this is the case then my recommendation is switching to another program to produce your projects since AC is not aligned with your workflows.</BLOCKQUOTE> This really isn't a great argument to make to people expressing dissatisfaction or highlighting issues with the program.<BR /> That basically, "if you don't like what they're offering, ggo find some other place to get your solution and see if anything better exists".<BR /> <BR /> I've used Revit; I used Vectorworks (and still have to from time to time); I've even dabbled with Microstation.<BR /> <BR /> I CHOOSE to use ArchiCAD because it works best for me.<BR /> Does that mean that I should then shut up about any issues I have with the program and just be happy with my decision since I made it and can always just go off to some other program if I'm not happy?<BR /> <BR /> Maybe the reason, myself as well as others raise these complaints and issues (rather than just walk away) is that we like the program well enough (something I've personally stated on many many occasions) that we care to see it improved in a way that it will be even more useful for us.<BR /> What's the point of the wishlist section, then if that's the attitude being espoused? OR even this whole Talk forum altogether?<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />The deliverable is what is important not the tool used.</BLOCKQUOTE> If you really believe that, when why do you use ArchiCAD.<BR /> Why do any of us use ArchiCAD?<BR /> Especially for those of us in Revit-heavy markets.<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR /> The client does not care what software was used for his project and if you are losing money using AC then it is definitively the wrong tool.</BLOCKQUOTE> One can enjoy using a program and still lose money using it.<BR /> Which isn't to say that there are any other better alternatives out there for them to switch to.<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />See:<BR /> <A href="http://blog.graphisoftus.com/archicad-user/powerhouse-brazil-firm-chooses-archicad-over-revit" target="_blank"><LINK_TEXT text="http://blog.graphisoftus.com/archicad-u ... over-revit">http://blog.graphisoftus.com/archicad-user/powerhouse-brazil-firm-chooses-archicad-over-revit</LINK_TEXT></A><BR /> <BR /> The reason they switched was that they could be more productive using AC than Revit and they could deliver the same amount of projects with almost half the personel and 2/3's less modeling errors. Maybe some need to switch to another platform.</BLOCKQUOTE> **sigh**<BR /> <BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR /> Here we get to the half-full half-empty part of the argument.<BR /> <BR /> If the opinion of GS is that one then I cannot see why you keep using AC. As with every new release we get into the priorities argument. This is not about wanting a new stair tool this is about guessing about GS priorities and resources. From one point of view GS is not working on or capable of developing the tools needed in the appropriate time frame. This forces us into workarounds or learning new software which for some is not an option. And they keep wasting time doing other things or following the instructions from the Marketing department. I have been reading this type of comment since AC09 which was my first upgrade though I don't remember if I got what I wanted or not. For these people it is almost obvious that AC should not be the tool to use.<BR /> <BR /> I don't think that doing the Parasol object and video took time away from stair development.<BR /> <BR /> I don't think that GS is stupid in assigning priorities or resources. Nor do I expect them to be perfect (Curtain Wall) or to be blind to the professions.<BR /> <BR /> When will get an Updated Stair Tool I have no idea but I can bet that they are working on it and they will release it as soon as they can.<BR /> <BR /> This does not mean that I don't get on GS case whenever I can either here, GDCP, in the Beta or with direct messages nor that we should not point out when they make mistakes.<BR /> <BR /> This means that I am still willing (based on my experience) to trust GS to do right by my professional needs rather than Autodesk, Bentley, VectorWorks et al.<BR /> <BR /> The Stair Tool is not a deal breaker for my deliverables but that might not be the case for some. For those that are not willing to wait or use a workaround there is not much I can do to help. For the ones that are willing to give GS the benefit of the doubt that we will get a new tool at some point I don't mind helping to figure out the workarounds for their particular problems.</BLOCKQUOTE> This almost sounds like, "If you're not happy with what you're getting, then go find it somewhere else, or shut up about it."<BR /> I've already expressed my opinion about this argument or line of reasoning, but I'll say that I don't think you're doing Graphisoft's marketing department a whole set of favors using it.<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />-PS-<BR /> The next set of argument for this will be when they finally release the New Stair and then the complains will be that it does not work like they want or that it is 80% complete or that they should have waited before releasing it since I need it to do this type of stair and GS does not know anything about architecture.</BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, bu at least we'd actually have SOMETHING to complain about.<BR /> Which is a whole lot more than we have now.<BR /> I don't think anyone is naive enough to believe they'll knock it out of the park on the first try when they release a version with a new stair tool.<BR /> <BR /> I can pretty much guarantee based on their history with new features, that, however good it is, it will have a ton of bugs galore, and that it probably probably a couple of hotfixes in, if not a few versions out, before it's usable, problem-free.<BR /> <BR /> Yeah, I wouldn't worry about expectations, as far as what we should expect and whether people will complain (they will).<BR /> GS have conditioned us over the years to have lowered expectations where these things are concerned Fri, 17 Jun 2016 19:54:53 GMT Bricklyne Clarence 2016-06-17T19:54:53Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292854#M151117 <DIV class="actalk-migrated-content"><T>come on GS, please....when are you going to make some good stairs.<BR /> How often do we need a "parasol object" video?<BR /> we need better stairs that are easy to work with.<BR /> we need better control of lineweights and pens.<BR /> we need composite materials settings where you can change the shape of the different materials within a composites.<BR /> we need better roof objects.<BR /> we need to be able to do custom GDL better.<BR /> we need better/easier customizable object creation.....<BR /> <BR /> we DONT need to know how to work the "parasol object"....<BR /> <BR /> sorry but it's stuff like this that really set me off like John Wick. We need better day to day components, not better obscure library objects.</T></DIV> Thu, 09 Jun 2016 22:32:01 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292854#M151117 rob2218 2016-06-09T22:32:01Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292855#M151118 <BLOCKQUOTE>rob2218 wrote:<BR />come on GS, please....</BLOCKQUOTE> Initial irony aside (totally in on a parasol joke)...<BR /> <BR /> Can you elaborate what is wrong?<BR /> <BR /> Can we start with a simple one to get it going? What does bug you about pens?... not trying to start a flame war, just want to know what pens did or didn't do for you. Tue, 14 Jun 2016 23:37:16 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292855#M151118 Anonymous 2016-06-14T23:37:16Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292856#M151119 I have a hard time understanding the "pen assinged" to objects rationale.<BR /> here's a simple example.<BR /> the window sills (on the exterior). they always come in Out of the Box, with this really really thick, dark pen. something that OOTB should be set to a thin pen lineweight.<BR /> <BR /> Also, that you certain objects (windows and doors primarily) linework can't be manipulated in elevation that easily. You have to riffle thru a myriad of setting pull-out arrows and tabs just to see "which" pen relates to which component of the windows/doors elevational parameters.<BR /> <BR /> You can't imagine how many times I've been repremanded for having window sills read very boldly and the wall edges read too lightly.....<BR /> <BR /> just should be easier to use all those 256 pens and pen combinations. Tue, 14 Jun 2016 23:43:21 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292856#M151119 rob2218 2016-06-14T23:43:21Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292857#M151120 and for the record...I wasn't kididng about users needing some basic objects....(ahem) stairs...that work better than they are now, even at release 20. <BLOCKQUOTE>Anton wrote:<BR /><BLOCKQUOTE>rob2218 wrote:<BR />come on GS, please....</BLOCKQUOTE> Initial irony aside (totally in on a parasol joke)...<BR /> <BR /> Can you elaborate what is wrong?<BR /> <BR /> Can we start with a simple one to get it going? What does bug you about pens?... not trying to start a flame war, just want to know what pens did or didn't do for you.</BLOCKQUOTE> Tue, 14 Jun 2016 23:44:22 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292857#M151120 rob2218 2016-06-14T23:44:22Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292858#M151121 <BLOCKQUOTE>rob2218 wrote:<BR />I have a hard time understanding the "pen assinged" to objects rationale.<BR /> <BR /> You can't imagine how many times I've been repremanded for having window sills read very boldly and the wall edges read too lightly.....<BR /> <BR /> just should be easier to use all those 256 pens and pen combinations.</BLOCKQUOTE> Actually I can imagine. I actually looked at out-of-the-box linework issues with doors and windows recently... they are all wrong with cut lines in wrong places line weights messed up... etc., the issue here is not with pens that are very simple to use and set up, but with default ARCHICAD template (that is simply horrendous) and errors in pen assignments within window/door library parts.<BR /> <BR /> So, in essence your quarrel is not with pens that are rather simple to manage, but with ARCHICAD's template settings and out-of-the-box library part quality.<BR /> <BR /> As an example here is a screen shot of out of the box cut line problem in windows (left) compared with debugged and fixed library parts (right). This is not a pen issue, but a template/library problem.<BR /><IMG src="https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/12077i49636516D3FAB8A9/image-size/large?v=v2&amp;px=999" border="0" alt="windows cut line.jpg" title="windows cut line.jpg" /> Wed, 15 Jun 2016 00:27:26 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292858#M151121 Anonymous 2016-06-15T00:27:26Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292859#M151122 OK, agreed then. not a pen issue but a library object with horrible pen assignments issue.<BR /> Either way....it's a nightmare where an OOTB software should come with some semblence of a good lineweight basic setup. Wed, 15 Jun 2016 03:00:54 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292859#M151122 rob2218 2016-06-15T03:00:54Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292860#M151123 I agree Rob.<BR /> <BR /> I had heard last summer the stair tool was on the way. I guess they had to stick it back in the oven.<BR /> <BR /> In general, it seems to me that many sub-disciplines within Archicad get baked to 90% and then released with no follow-up for that last 10%.<BR /> <BR /> An obvious example is window schedules. YEARS ago we tried to set up and use the schedules but gave up. I.E. with 3 ganged windows needing 3 indicators and a 'W Ribbon' (or other multi-pane window) needing only one indicator it just created a confused mess. Just making the ability to A) group ganged windows to be one unit; or B) schedule each pane - would cover both ways of doing it instead.<BR /> <BR /> Here's a brand-new example of what I would hope would be the first step in an incremental release: the new barge board object. How about tie it to a roof for auto-updating pitch, length if the roof changes? And a similar fascia with optional gutter? And a smart downspout which auto-snaps to the gutter to adjust to the overhang and the outside finish surface of the wall?<BR /> <BR /> Other stuff we get around by 'gaming the game' or a bit of manual drafting. We spend too much time on sections drawing in plates and insulation. We've experimented with complex profile walls with plates, but there are many, many headaches that come up. How about add an option in the wall tool for top &amp; bottom plates, optional blocking at a certain height, and insulation between top and bottom plates. Go in to a section and the plates have a handle to pick to move them up/down in case they aren't immediately correct and insulation auto-updates?<BR /> <BR /> I'll also throw out there, again, that a driveway tool that the user specifies a material or composite and draws or ctrl-clicks a polyline to draw it in. The driveway is tied to the mesh and if the mesh changes the driveway updates.<BR /> <BR /> Building material priorities work on meshes, i.e. concrete cuts mesh.<BR /> <BR /> Zones in section can have a title (room name).<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> I'm sure there are many more. Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:19:21 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292860#M151123 Jeff Kogut 2016-06-15T15:19:21Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292861#M151124 <BLOCKQUOTE>rob2218 wrote:<BR />..it's a nightmare where an OOTB software should come with some semblance of a good lineweight basic setup.</BLOCKQUOTE> I agree and I don't understand that ether. <BR /> If it is easy for anybody with knowledge of ARCHICAD to go through and correct all the errors within ARCHICAD basic Library and Template (takes a few hours), why doesn't GRAPHISOFT's Quality Assurance department (I think it does exist, as any software house has one) do that?<BR /> <BR /> From experience, things like this are easily fixed by any software company <U></U><S><U><U></U></U></S>if the bug is clearly defined and suggested solution is given<E></E>. GRAPHISOFT is no exception.<BR /> <BR /> The proper algorithm in dealing with any software company is very simple: <BR /> "we need better control of lineweights and pens." — will never get fixed, it won't even be looked at by GRAPHISOFT for lack of any orderly description. Moreover, as it turns out, initial description has absolutely nothing to do with a problem you are having and, consequently, will <U></U><S><U><U></U></U></S>never<E></E> be addressed to your liking.<BR /> "please update BasicWindowPanelStraight macro by changing "pen gs_frame_pen_cont" at line 270 to "pen gs_frame_pen". — will work (might require a bit of additonal communication with GS on the part of convincing them that it is for the best).<BR /> <BR /> Alternatively, you can make changes you need yourself, or seek help to resolve your issues locally without involving GS.<BR /> <BR /> You really <U></U><S><U><U></U></U></S>can<E></E> take matters in your own hands and fix whatever problems you might encounter with the software, or you might chose to spend your time communicating with GS and getting it fixed for everybody. <BR /> Ether way, you need structured approach. In the end, it is just a matter of organization. Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:53:49 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292861#M151124 Anonymous 2016-06-15T15:53:49Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292862#M151125 Anton,<BR /> You make a good point about taking care to be specific in the problem description or request for change.<BR /> But we should also notice that different markets have different localization teams and different OOTB content.<BR /> For example, your screenshot might not reflect the American pen table and library that Rob and Jeff are seeing OOTB.<BR /> <BR /> Windows are very complex and there are mistakes and unintended consequences. For example, if we turn on the window sill, it may require other considerations such as wall type, casing settings, and many others. This is not ideal and the complexity of these library parts contributes to the challenge.<BR /> But OOTB favorites can help this situation which is far from foolproof.<BR /> <BR /> Here are some screen shots of OOTB content in the US AC19 commercial template: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:26:48 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292862#M151125 Ransom Ratcliff 2016-06-16T16:26:48Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292863#M151126 <BLOCKQUOTE>Ransom wrote:<BR />But we should also notice that different markets have different localization teams and different OOTB content.<BR /> For example, your screenshot might not reflect the American pen table and library that Rob and Jeff are seeing OOTB.</BLOCKQUOTE> Than you for official input on this.<BR /> <BR /> I am aware of various localization options in ARCHICAD and you do have all localized demos available for download on your web site, so anyone can take a look, not only regular ARCHICAD users. So, I do keep an eye on any developments in all the markets as a hobby.<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>Ransom wrote:<BR /> For example, your screenshot might not reflect the American pen table and library that Rob and Jeff are seeing OOTB.</BLOCKQUOTE> My pen table does not reflect any standard pen table. <span class="lia-unicode-emoji" title=":slightly_smiling_face:">🙂</span> It is the one I put together on a whim to test broken library parts/macros-related issues.<BR /> But, you are certainly right. Problem area I am referring to in my image was found in INT (International) version of the library/temlpate.<BR /> <BR /> Graphisoft US's Residential and Commercial Templates (and US-specific library) are generally much cleaner and show leaps and bounds better care taken in creating library parts and basic templates, but they still have errors in windows/door macros preventing proper display, just fewer and different ones.<BR /> <BR /> Like I mentioned before — it all depends on who does the job and whether they care about what they do.<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>Ransom wrote:<BR /> Windows are very complex and there are mistakes and unintended consequences.</BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, they are complex and no, there should not be mistakes like that in a commercially available product. It took me an hour or two to trace and fix all errors in all door/window macros in the INT version. I think GS QA staff can do the same.<BR /> <BR /> -----------------------<BR /> <BR /> Localization aside, there are scores of critical issues to the core ARCHICAD program that don't get addressed for years. <BR /> How about making super-hot (pun intended) EcoDesigner calculate Sun heat gain properly without overheating...? 6D BIM anyone? Nope... no luck.<BR /> How about bringing a development team back to work on the most awesome feature ARCHICAD has to date —&nbsp;5D BIM in a form of Lists, Databases and linking property objects? I think ArchiCAD 9 being the last point of update is a little harsh. And now third-party commercial entities develop and market simple interface to bypass horrendously unfriendly Lists set up system and will sell it like hotcakes (outside GS).<BR /> What about Construction Simulation ArchiCAD Add-on from the turn of the century... 4D BIM anyone? Nope... no support for Partial Structure Display and all the rest of new features....<BR /> <BR /> Sit down, fix the old stuff get the best software in the world. For real.<BR /> <BR /> It is amazing how much forward looking development already built into ARCHICAD for years is overlooked by GS marketing team.... and as a consequence —&nbsp;letting latecomers like Revit take the market lead. I understand Autodesk is hard to compete with (I come from Autodesk camp and know Revit just as well as I know ARCHICAD), but gosh.... you already have tools to ride future UK's BIM Level 3 wave for years (4D BIM, 5D BIM, 6D BIM), not clawing low double digits of market share.... you have all the tools and none of them work... It is a QA issue. Fire your marketing team, get a competent one, fix the old stuff, get AC21 out with a bang... don't develop new parasol objects — they don't bring money to the house....<BR /> <BR /> Almost forgot... 7D BIM... rebuild ArchiFM in the cloud (and while you are at it, move Lists and Databases to the cloud too) to give FM managers (and cost estimators) worldwide (SaaS paid subscription, anyone?) access to all the data without requiring them to learn ARCHICAD (never works)... <BR /> <BR /> Really... 2D, 3D, 4D, 5D, 6D and 7D+ BIM in one user-friendly application? ... "<I></I><S><I><I></I></I></S>Do you remember 2017, Karl, when Autodesk went out of business?<E></E>"... What is GS marketing team thinking? <U></U><S><U><U></U></U></S><A href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PUtkg9WkRU" target="_blank"></A><S><A href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PUtkg9WkRU" target="_blank"></A><A href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PUtkg9WkRU" target="_blank"></A></S><FONT color="blue">ARCHICAD 20 - New Parasol Library Part</FONT><E></E><E></E>... <span class="lia-unicode-emoji" title=":slightly_smiling_face:">🙂</span> <BR /> <BR /> And we are talking complex windows here.... Issues like these made me come back to active ARCHICAD life after many years of voluntary reclusion. Lets see if we can make a difference. Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:05:07 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292863#M151126 Anonymous 2016-06-16T17:05:07Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292864#M151127 ArchiFM still exist <A href="http://www.archifm.net" target="_blank">http://www.archifm.net</A> and it is in the cloud and it connects to BimX. Look at the video from KCC posted earlier this week the demo was from Gabor at the end.<BR /> <BR /> Was going to write a rant about the parasol object, stair et al, but decided it as not worth it.<BR /> TL:DR or (W)rite<BR /> <BR /> 2 options about the stair tool: One is that GS is not working on a revamped Stair tool the other is that they are working on it and it is not ready yet.<BR /> <BR /> 2 options about parasol: One is that they decided not to work on the Stair Tool and work on this. The other is that they worked on this because of a specific client need (they were "forced" to do it) and they got permission to share it as part of the release. And the video is part of all of the stuff they need to do as part of the marketing for 20 (and to make that particular client happy that GS is willing to go the extra mile for them). Or it was made as an internal project with some interns and they wanted to reward them for all of their effort and give them something to put in their CV's.<BR /> <BR /> ----<BR /> I know which options I choose to believe but maybe I am wrong and GS is withholding work on the Stair tool so that I stop using AC. <IMG src="https://community.graphisoft.com/legacyfs/online/emojis/icon_wink.gif" style="display : inline;" /> Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:41:09 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292864#M151127 Eduardo Rolon 2016-06-16T20:41:09Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292865#M151128 <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />....<BR /> 2 options about the stair tool: One is that GS is not working on a revamped Stair tool the other is that they are working on it and it is not ready yet.<BR /> ...</BLOCKQUOTE> I'd say that those apply to practically every tool.<BR /> <BR /> The sad truth is that there are a lot of things that need updating and currently feel unfinished. The properties and global overrides are indeed great new features. They say this release tackles the "i" in BIM, so I hope that AC21 takes on the B and the M. That's another year gone at least. I'm afraid that by the time things really really evolve I'll be retiring. <IMG src="https://community.graphisoft.com/legacyfs/online/emojis/icon_sad.gif" style="display : inline;" /> <BR /> <BR /> Best regards. Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:34:45 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292865#M151128 sinceV6 2016-06-16T21:34:45Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292866#M151129 <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />they worked on this because of a specific client need (they were "forced" to do it) and they got permission to share it as part of the release. And the video is part of all of the stuff they need to do as part of the marketing for 20 (and to make that particular client happy that GS is willing to go the extra mile for them)</BLOCKQUOTE> This bothers me a bit as a bystander, Eduardo. <BR /> It seems to be the business model nowadays. I am sure GS has reasons... "change management" for one client... "grasshopper connection" for another.... "parasol" for the third one.... all important clients happy, but difficulty for the company as a whole. <BR /> <BR /> Maybe it is worth looking for a more generic, world-wide approach that I outlined in my previous post than chasing a few select firms. We will see how it will turn out.<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />I'm afraid that by the time things really really evolve I'll be retiring.</BLOCKQUOTE> My thoughts exactly. I took a long sabbatical moving from architecture to do software development, but architecture does not seem to be evolving as fast as I, personally, would like it to, so I figured I'd come out and play. Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:35:33 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292866#M151129 Anonymous 2016-06-16T21:35:33Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292867#M151130 <BLOCKQUOTE>Anton wrote:<BR />… I am sure GS has reasons... change management for one client... grasshopper connection for another.... parasol for the third one.... all important clients happy, but difficulty for the company as a whole…</BLOCKQUOTE> Forgetting Morph and Renovation. Every single item you have listed, obviously not the parasol object, has benefited me in lots of ways and I am a single practitioner. So I have no problem waiting until things are cooked.<BR /> <BR /> What is the actual price for a truly bi-directional connection between Grasshopper and AC that no other BIM package has and we got for free?<BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>sinceV6 wrote:<BR />…<BR /> <BR /> I'd say that those apply to practically every tool.<BR /> <BR /> The sad truth is that there are a lot of things that need updating and currently feel unfinished. The properties and global overrides are indeed great new features. They say this release tackles the "i" in BIM, so I hope that AC21 takes on the B and the M. That's another year gone at least. I'm afraid that by the time things really really evolve I'll be retiring. <IMG src="https://community.graphisoft.com/legacyfs/online/emojis/icon_sad.gif" style="display : inline;" /> <BR /> <BR /> Best regards.</BLOCKQUOTE> So GS gets slammed for releasing an idea that is not finished yet (Properties, Curtain Wall Tool with reason) and it also gets slammed for not releasing until it is done (Stair Tool, possibly) plus they get slammed for working slow.<BR /> <BR /> ----<BR /> -----<BR /> For the record I am writing about complaining about "wasting" time doing the Parasol object and video. We can critique the implementation of all the new tools as much as we want, GOs, Curtain Wall, AC Properties , New Tabs, Interface, etc. But give the guys at GS some credit that they are doing all they can to fulfill our needs. We can argue about priorities but we don't know how their teams are setup, how they evaluate their priorities, how they classify the amount of effort needed to update such an old tool as the Stair.<BR /> <BR /> So what we should sacrifice for the stair tool? Shell, Morphs, Interface, GO's, IFC, PlotMaker, Schedules, Revision Tool, Teamwork, BimX, CineRender?<BR /> <BR /> For me the answer is none since I have been able to model all my stairs since AC8.0 with the existing tools thus having an improved Stair Tool is not so high in my list of priorities.<BR /> If I cannot achieve a Stairs with the existing tool then I would be looking at modeling them using Rhino-&gt;GH-&gt;AC since with that combo I can coordinate multiple items in a single click, matching a specific form and linking it to the particular code that I need. This can be done now though only in PC. Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:14:30 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292867#M151130 Eduardo Rolon 2016-06-16T22:14:30Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292868#M151131 <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />So I have no problem waiting until things are cooked.</BLOCKQUOTE> Unfortunately, at times — they don't. And they don't because, for one reason or another, GS has difficulty gathering and organizing resources for new development.<BR /> <BR /> I can care less about wrong pens, missing markers or stairs, as all those issues are easily overcome with existing tools and on-site knowledge of ARCHICAD, but what I do care about, as a full-stack developer, is that there is a very loose structure to marketing and rather patchy and swinging new development roadmap. <BR /> This does affect the bottom line, GS makes less money and has less resources to do new development. It is an endless circle and they need to break out of it. <BR /> <BR /> If I where to run a project similar to this, I would first establish a few strategic goals along the lines of where the entire world will look at in a few years, then rework the tools the company already has to get a shiny new thing with minimal effort. This new thing can be pushed to new users expanding the user base and affecting company cashflow... AC20 is unlikely to fill the shoes. It will be an awesome release for people that understand and cherish the concept of Information Modeling (few people do), but short of a new interface there are no standing out features to bring new, uninitiated client base. It basically means that ARCHICAD is very good as it is, but it can be so much better with a bit of out-of-the-box, asymmetrical thinking. Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:40:13 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292868#M151131 Anonymous 2016-06-16T22:40:13Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292869#M151132 I understand their are complaints about what isn't included in AC at every release; but at the same time, this software is really freaking flexible and dynamic. There is not a lot that can not be modeled and documented easily in ARCHICAD.<BR /> <BR /> I think there are two issues with these kind of complaints. 1) Working under the assumption that each tool only does one thing, or that the only way to model anything is with the tool of that name. 2) Lack of a proper template.<BR /> <BR /> So in reading this thread so far (and hundreds of threads before this), the 2 tools that generate the most complaints are Doors/Windows and Stairs.<BR /> <BR /> Doors and Windows, specifically pertaining to their line weights and attributes can and should be mitigated by the use of favorites. Favorites and a quality template are essential- never assume you can just open AC out of the box and have everything exactly how you want it. As Ransom pointed out, there is no way for Graphisoft to meet everyone's graphic needs and expectations for every region/project type/level of anal retention.<BR /> <BR /> The stair tool is another issue. This is an insanely complicated tool that basically writes a gdl script for you. It is pretty freaking amazing that it works at all, yet less gets you the results you need. Is it user friendly? no. Can it be used in most cases of custom designed stairs? no. This is why I don't use it. I design and model stairs with a combination of Walls, Slabs, Beams, Columns, Roofs, Shells, and Objects. Expecting a single tool to design and represent an entire complex building component like a stair is a stretch. Some third party products may get closer than ARCHICAD's built in tool, but they are still not good enough for anything other than fire stairs or that schematic design model that you only need something and don't care what it is.<BR /> <BR /> So rather than rag on what AC can't do, use the tools given. Give constructive &amp; specific feedback, maybe we will eventually get some components that will do some design work for you... but I don't know that I want that anyway.<BR /> <BR /> Learn how to build objects from different elements, save as objects, or script objects from scratch. Its a lot to ask, and can seem overwhelming, but its such a versatile and powerful option.<BR /> <BR /> Most importantly, get a template that streamlines the settings and use of all of ARCHICAD's tools that you use. Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:52:37 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292869#M151132 Anonymous 2016-06-16T22:52:37Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292870#M151133 Ok, one last thing... given the example of schedules for ribbon windows not doing what you need... This is a perfect example of not exploring all the options fully.<BR /> You can easily model each window independently with correct "mulling" dimensions in the settings. This gives you a unique marker for each. Then use a label to show your "W Marker" at the central panel. If the window needs to schedule as the full dimension, you could also have non-scheduling windows for the individual windows and an empty opening for the full mulled unit.<BR /> I do this frequently for sliding door units with varied leaf widths.<BR /> <BR /> If it seems like you should be able to do something in ARCHICAD, you most likely can. It normally just takes a small amount of out of the box thinking.<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> Anyway, thats the end of my rant... Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:56:14 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292870#M151133 Anonymous 2016-06-16T22:56:14Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292871#M151134 <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />...<BR /> <BR /> So GS gets slammed for releasing an idea that is not finished yet (Properties, Curtain Wall Tool with reason) and it also gets slammed for not releasing until it is done (Stair Tool, possibly) plus they get slammed for working slow.<BR /> ...</BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not saying things to slam anyone. Even less at GS. I have always praised the deep analysis they put with new tools. Sometimes it works, sometimes it needs to be addressed (i.e. orange orb and current snap guides). And I have always said that the strong part of AC is its workflow paradigm.<BR /> <BR /> I'm not talking about a single tool. Fixing the stair tool would solve only one thing. I'm talking about the general concept here, where that small gap to get that feeling of things working as they should would make a world of difference. Every new release brings new things. New great things that benefit most of AC users. I guess the general discomfort lies in the sense that there are things that could have been addressed or finished in any of those releases but just weren't. Examples?<BR /> <BR /> <I></I><S><I><I></I></I></S>Building materials<E></E>.- AWESOME new feature. Shifted workflows entirely. But priority based connections work automatically with some elements, others need to be connected manually, others just don't use them (mesh). Why not implement them entirely? Why are they not available to GDL? I know there will be reasons as to why they weren't done for every tool the first time, but they could have improved over time.<BR /> <I></I><S><I><I></I></I></S>Solid Element Operations<E></E>.- I dare to say AC's booleans are some of the cleanest operations I've seen. But as handy as they are, they weren't done for floorplans. Oh, but some tools now show them you might say. Great! Why not every tool or every element displays them yet?<BR /> <I></I><S><I><I></I></I></S>Profile manager<E></E>.- Be careful with curvy elements. Although the intrinsic nature of GDL won't allow for smooth curves, it is something that could have started to be addressed since the introduction of shells, when GS realized that AC needed more modeling freedom.<BR /> <I></I><S><I><I></I></I></S>GDL itself and libraries<E></E>.- AMAZING things can be done with it. It is fast and efficient. It is old. It is holding AC back. It takes a lot of development time. Building good and great parametric library parts takes a lot of time, trial and error. I remember GS developers saying they used the same development environment and suffered with the rest of the users. It's crazy that even today, when you know that you can use any tool for a purpose other than intended, you can't use them in the GDL development environment to model directly in it -instead of scripting- and connect its creation parameters. This is also why companies prefer to model their products in other platforms.<BR /> <BR /> Is that small gap to close the circle that rises the frustation bar. And there are many other small things that could have been improved -the forums are plagued with those-, but resources are targeted to key targets. No wonder it is called KCC: Key Client Conference. May be related, maybe not.<BR /> <BR /> I know things need time to develop. Remember when profiles couldn't be applied to curved elements? Got fixed for the next release. I also remember the proof of concept I did in GDL for connected floor to floor height for walls in V13 when a Revit user asked if it could be done in AC. This arrived in V18 with natural constraints.<BR /> <BR /> Many years ago the parametricity offered was ok because it didn't play a big role as it does now. Isolated parametric objects were great, but today standards have different demands. A lot will be solved with the Rhino connection, but a lot will not.<BR /> <BR /> I hope this clarifies a little what I'm talking about. I'm not saying things just to say, or flame anything or anyone. I also understand that GS has priorities and a development roadmap, and that when a new feature is not ready, it is just not ready. The frustrating part is that sometimes it feels like things will remain as they are for who knows how long.<BR /> <BR /> Best regards. Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:58:41 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292871#M151134 sinceV6 2016-06-17T00:58:41Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292872#M151135 I do agree with you <B>sinceV6</B> and I don't know if you are in the Beta group, if not then you have no idea the arguments that go on in that one between users and the different teams.<BR /> <BR /> The problem is when post like this and a couple of others start assuming that "if GS had not done this then I would have gotten what I want…" or "Why they keep wasting resources?".<BR /> <BR /> If you look at the previous releases you can define what the strategy and changes are going forward. Basically there will be an overall coordinating concept, something New introduced (I don't need this/ this is marketing), something old updated (Finally!!/productivity), some basic new stuff updated or created for the release and some WTFs. Everything aligned to avoid AC running slower than before and that it works with TW.<BR /> <BR /> So join the Beta when it comes around… Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:21:29 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292872#M151135 Eduardo Rolon 2016-06-17T01:21:29Z https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292873#M151136 <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />....<BR /> Forgetting Morph and Renovation. Every single item you have listed, obviously not the parasol object, has benefited me in lots of ways and I am a single practitioner. So I have no problem waiting until things are cooked.</BLOCKQUOTE> Not everyone has that luxury, though.<BR /> <BR /> What is the actual price for a truly bi-directional connection between Grasshopper and AC that no other BIM package has and we got for free?<BR /> <BR /> Two problems I see with this.<BR /> With the first, being the obvious that people who don't know how to use Rhino (or worse, Grasshopper) have to learn how to use them to get the benefit of this connection.<BR /> Otherwise it's a wasted development effort for the 80-90% of architects who don't use Rhino or Grasshopper<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> Full disclosure, I DO use both and have used them since Grad school - certainly Rhino.<BR /> And my assessment is that while it does show great promise, it's still not where it needs to be to be a truly useful connection that really leverages the strengths of Rhino/Grasshopper in an ArchiCAD environment.<BR /> And unfortunately a lot of its limitations at the moment result largely from ArchiCAD's own limitations and shortcomings since it can only translate geometry and information based on ArchiCAD's tool template. For example, if I build an envelop for a surface in Rhino and wish to transfer it to ARchiCAD and have it read as a proper curtain wall object (for quantification purposes), I can only do so much since frames in the ArchiCAD tool for example can't twist or rotate to any angle on all three axes as you would need to translate some forms, and even the Curtain wall itself can't be double-curved. (obviously), panels can't be twisted - all of which essentially forces you to translate all that information into morphs.<BR /> I don't need to point out the obvious problem with doing it this way, in light of what I'm seeking to do in documentation terms.<BR /> <BR /> That's the second problem which I don't believe is that critical - obviously depending on how much more maturity the connection itself can undergo and how much farther GS are willing to keep developing it.<BR /> And in light of their history with releasing ground-breaking tools in recent versions (**ahem**Curtain wall tool**cough**), can anyone really have any assurance that they will continue supporting and improving this connection as it needs to be, in order for it to be useful?<BR /> <BR /> I really hope they're taking notes in seeing how McNeel helped nurture Grasshopper's development - which was a ground-up, community-based effort. <BR /> <BR /> There's a third problem which you yourself actually point out (inadvertently) later on in your post.<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR /> So GS gets slammed for releasing an idea that is not finished yet (Properties, Curtain Wall Tool with reason) and it also gets slammed for not releasing until it is done (Stair Tool, possibly) plus they get slammed for working slow.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR /> Does it really have to be an either/or type situation, though?<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> Getting slammed for releasing an idea that's not finished yet, is a justifiable consequence of forcing your paying customers to have to use half-finished goods that they are paying for.<BR /> <BR /> How would a client of yours like it if you designed a house in which they'd have to cover up some holes in the walls where windows are supposed to be because you didn't finish designing the windows in time?<BR /> Chances are this would never happen because no architect (or contractor) could survive such a business model.<BR /> <BR /> And yet we're supposed to be understanding when it comes to a product and tool we're paying for.<BR /> Does that make sense to you?<BR /> <BR /> And they get slammed not for not releasing a tool until it is done (stair tool) but rather that it takes them an inconceivable and incomprehensible amount of time (over 15 years that people have been clamoring for improvements to it by my count) to even acknowledge at all (they never really have) that it needs work and improvement, much less even put it on their priority list of things to be improved.<BR /> As for getting slammed for "working slow" isn't that at odds with their own self-chosen yearly update schedule? (which most of us pointed out was probably a bad idea in the first place, and which also results in them releasing half-finished tools that they then never finish or make improvements to)?<BR /> <BR /> They chose that schedule. Not us.<BR /> <BR /> I understand the reasons for why they would want to and why they did (revenue-stream based), but with every decision there are clear consequences.<BR /> <BR /> Besides, it doesn't really help their argument, or rather this line of argument, when they then go and spend whatever little time they have (or might claim they have) for development, working on such "revolutionary tools" like a parasol object, or a playground object.<BR /> <BR /> Just saying....<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> <BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />----<BR /> -----<BR /> For the record I am writing about complaining about "wasting" time doing the Parasol object and video. We can critique the implementation of all the new tools as much as we want, GOs, Curtain Wall, AC Properties , New Tabs, Interface, etc. But give the guys at GS some credit that they are doing all they can to fulfill our needs. We can argue about priorities but we don't know how their teams are setup, how they evaluate their priorities, how they classify the amount of effort needed to update such an old tool as the Stair.<BR /> <BR /> So what we should sacrifice for the stair tool? Shell, Morphs, Interface, GO's, IFC, PlotMaker, Schedules, Revision Tool, Teamwork, BimX, CineRender?</BLOCKQUOTE> I would sacrifice all of them (save for maybe the Plotmaker, which they absolutely had do to, and perhaps IFC and maybe Teamwork). That's just how important and fundamental I believe stairs are in a project.<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> But again, here we fall into the trap of the "Either/Or"<BR /> <BR /> It's not like their options are to either do the stair tool and sacrifice one or all of those tools at the same time.<BR /> Why not prioritize?<BR /> We all have to do it.<BR /> And if stairs are so low on your list of priorities (and at odds with how high it is on your customers list of priorities) then something is seriously askew and generally wrong with your outlook.<BR /> <BR /> You can't really argue that from a utilitarian perspective, that BimX or Cinerender - for as important as they are - are really that much more important and useful than stairs in a building, can you?<BR /> Most people were already outsourcing their primary rendering needs before they upgraded from Lightworks to Cinerender and we went for an entire year when more than half the user-base couldn't even benefit from BimX since it was Mac-only initially.<BR /> <BR /> But I understand why they did both first.<BR /> Marketing.<BR /> I get it.<BR /> Graphisoft have to be in the public consciousness as part of their ability to survive in the competitive BIM world, and part of doing that is having revolutionary tools like BIMx and a kick-as.s. out-of-the-box renderer like Cinerender.<BR /> I get it.<BR /> <BR /> But still....<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />For me the answer is none since I have been able to model all my stairs since AC8.0 with the existing tools thus having an improved Stair Tool is not so high in my list of priorities.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR /> But it is for many...<BR /> Yes, we can work around the problems and shortcomings, currently. But workarounds only take you so far most of the time before you begin losing on your return-on-investment and time spent.<BR /> <BR /> Incidentally this is a recurring theme on most of the problems and shortcomings with all their other tools, as well.<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> <BLOCKQUOTE>ejrolon wrote:<BR />If I cannot achieve a Stairs with the existing tool then I would be looking at modeling them using Rhino-&gt;GH-&gt;AC since with that combo I can coordinate multiple items in a single click, matching a specific form and linking it to the particular code that I need. This can be done now though only in PC.</BLOCKQUOTE> And therein lies problem #3 (for Mac people, at least. The reverse of what we had when BimX was released).<BR /> <BR /> <BR /> Not to mention a return to problem #2 and #1 with the having to force people to learn yet ANOTHER program (AND have to PAY for it) just to deal with a situation that your primary program can't (but should, given it's primary function).<BR /> <BR /> A lot of Graphisoft's problems (to us, anyway) seem self-inflicted.<BR /> <BR /> And a lot of the solutions they come up with to deal with these problems seem to spawn even more problems.<BR /> <BR /> But then again maybe they don't view them as problems.<BR /> Which in turn becomes a bigger problem for us. Fri, 17 Jun 2016 07:05:28 GMT https://community.graphisoft.com/t5/Modeling/New-parasol-training-video-come-GS/m-p/292873#M151136 Bricklyne Clarence 2016-06-17T07:05:28Z