topic Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d? in Modeling

Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Sandramuller — Thu, 06 Jul 2023 16:57:42 GMT

We had a conversation in the office.

For tender/construction drawings, how much do you fix the section (after you changed from just grey walls floors etc to showing the build ups) and how much do you transfer this information in a 2d drawing (and finish it off in 2d like you would have done in Autocad)?

Any example images would be nice

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Eduardo Rolon — Thu, 06 Jul 2023 18:52:17 GMT

As close to 0% as possible for sections and wall sections.

Logic is "if it will possibly impact more than one drawing" then fix the model.

Typical Details are mostly 2D.

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Barry Kelly — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 01:12:42 GMT

I find it is quite possible to model everything up to a scale of 1:50, possibly 1:20 without any problems.

Once you start needing larger scales details to show things like waterproof membranes, fixing plate, nuts & bolts, etc., then that is when I start detailing in 2D.

But even many of those things such as the fixing plates can be modelled in 3D and saved as objects or modules, so the majority of the 2D work is done for you.

Barry.

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Sandramuller — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 02:58:20 GMT

What about individual bricks and blocks?

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Barry Kelly — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 03:13:21 GMT

In elevation, I use a surface with a hatch associated to it.

In section I would add a 2D object overlay as I don't think you can control the position of a cut fill if you need to represent accurate brick coursing.

But again, only for large scale details, 1:20 and larger.

Any scale up to 1:50, I am happy with a solid or hatched fill.

Barry.

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Tim Ball — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 13:28:14 GMT

I create every section from 3D model by drawing complex profiles.

There may be a limit to the complexity of a model but I haven't hit it yet.

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

mthd — Mon, 10 Jul 2023 03:58:41 GMT

I just add the 2D line work with Archicad over the top of the live cross section with layers for each 2D fill or element at 1:50. Sometimes you need to turn off 3D element layers if they interfere with your section 2D representations. If the model changes you can always edit your 2D work to suit. No need to use another app. Sometimes it can become necessary to turn your live cross sections or elevations into a 2D drawing, it’s good to have that flexibility inside Archicad.

Edit: We can also change the section or elevation drawing status back to auto rebuild or “live” if the model changes shape. The more you can create an accurate 3D model the less 2D line work you will need to do. Some master class Archicad users here, use the complex profile tool to help them make the section look even more closer to the building reality. I however am still learning to use that tool in the process for creating a slab rebate for example.

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

DGSketcher — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 07:22:19 GMT

All the coordination benefits of 3D are lost as soon as you move to 2D. I will avoid 2D details unless I have to and use live [detail] sections for everything I can and as others have suggested just overlay with fills, lines & notes. I tend to pick up a lot of drawings from collaborators and it is so frustrating when you see parts of their drawings aren't coordinated because they either work exclusively in 2D or their detail / section views haven't been updated with material changes in their own design.

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Sandramuller — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 08:39:21 GMT

Over the live 3d?

Not sure I understand. Do you have a sample image or similar to explain?

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Sandramuller — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 09:31:37 GMT

This is for example what my colleagues are doing

Coppingfrom the section onto a Worksheet and then changing the 2d information.

https://youtu.be/BDm7nWxOdqo

Anyone has a good link how to do it without loosing the connection to the model?

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Tim Ball — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 10:04:21 GMT

I've been working with 3D only for nearly 10 years

See this example from 8 years ago

https://bobrow.com/archicad-working-drawings-done-without-drafting-details/

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Eduardo Rolon — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 16:25:04 GMT

Don't forget that you can create 2D Patches for critical conditions then copy/paste them as necessary. A very old tool that can get you out of a jamb quickly to overlay on top of 3D.

https://help.graphisoft.com/AC/26/INT/index.htm?rhcsh=1&rhnewwnd=0&rhmapid=#t=_AC26_Help%2F040_ElementsVB%2F040_ElementsVB-287.htm&rhsearch=patches&rhhlterm=patches&rhsyns=%20

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Eduardo Rolon — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 16:34:22 GMT

You should avoid doing that but if you must then it is easier to just copy the elements in section/elev and move them to the side so that you can still see what changes automatically.

Still this is not the way you should be using AC, you will most of the benefits of working with BIM.

To make it more clear any example file I received from someone asking for work which "unlinks/explodes" sections elevations just indicates that the person is in serious need of training.

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

jl_lt — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 18:55:17 GMT

Hi. The first advice i can think of is simply avoind doing that as much as possible. You are better off drawing in 2d software than in Archicad if you are into that workflow (nice video anyway)

Second advice would be to leave out all preconceptions you have from drawing in 2d. You are now in a 3d bim software; it would be in your best interest to adjust your mindset because workflows and ways of doing things are completely dfferent here. I have found that the "i will model and do things so they resemble to what i did in 2d" mindset is specially pernicious. 2d cad had its own flow, the same as Archicad has its own. Embrace it. Eventually youll arrive to a point when theyll look even better than in 2d cad.

Third, one of the benefits of using Archicad is that everything is completely coordinated (assuming you model in 3d). Sure, the speed of clicking is much slower thatn in 2dcad, so you might think you are not doing much. But one Archicad click is about 10 2dCad clicks, because once you have some standards and template more or less set, you are almost always advancing forward. No need to go back and check things.

Finally, here is a short article from Archicad guru James Murray, from Onland.info. In its day, It really helped us in getting in to the Archicad workflow and still go back to it from time to time:

https://www.onland.info/archives/2006/03/beauty_is_third.php

Best of lucks

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Sandramuller — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 21:34:47 GMT

Graphisoft Hotline has suggested that a few times when they could not fix things.

Just not sure how this would ve useful as a strategy for a whole.section

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Sandramuller — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 21:36:58 GMT

I agree. There is a lot they don't seem to know.

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

DGSketcher — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 22:00:53 GMT

With the digital design process users tend to loose a sense of scale. Possibly the best way to learn is to print the drawing and consider how much of what was drawn is still visible. There is little point in showing detailed features when they can’t be seen in the output.

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

Eduardo Rolon — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 22:59:06 GMT

Patches are used when all else fails to clean up a specific condition so I am not surprised that they recommend them. If you are modeling correctly you should only have to use them very rarely. IIRC last time I did was in a 2017 project and before that in a 2008 so you would not build a section with multiple patches. If you are having to do that then you are using AC wrong. 😉

Anyway you have received comments from a lot of users here, all have recommended not exploding to 2D but you use the software as you want, they are your projects.

FWIW, all 3D except the hook

Re: Sections - from model or change to 2d?

mthd — Mon, 10 Jul 2023 07:09:06 GMT

Please take a look at the excellent videos online from Robert Mann if you are in Australia on how he goes about it. He also uses the complex profile tool to assist in the process. I am also trying to learn how to use the complex profile tool so that I have to do less 2D line work on my sections. I turn my sections and elevations into drawings when the Cad Image generated roof coverings and capping happen to jump out of place at times lol.

Edit: This excellent video by Jared Banks shows a master class of how to mainly use 3D elements and do minimal 2D work on sections and details.

https://youtu.be/uCqFJ70v-xM

Edit 2: These are just principles of how to get to the end result of great looking sections elevations or details. I would use what helps me to get the job completed in time and what tools and skills I have available at the time. If you happen to have Autocad in the office and are a proficient user then it’s cool to use a different method to complete your work on time. Most of us here try and build an accurate 3D model to present to clients and then extract as much BIM from it as is possible. All good fun.

I used to use Brainy CAD with my hands in the previous millennium like many older ones here did as well. I am glad we have CAD because I can’t see as well these days and my tendons in my fingers are too tight for precision drawing lol.