topic Re: Incorrect cavity closure in Modeling

Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Fri, 26 May 2023 12:58:35 GMT

Hi all,

I'm trying to get the 'traditional' type cavity closure to represent correctly on plan, but because I have a plaster skin on my composite, the insulation bit ends up just behind the plaster instead of in the cavity.

Maybe I'm just being blonde, but have a look at the attached pic. The top one is what I'm getting, and the bottom one is how I'd like it to look... but I had to remove the render to achieve it. I've fiddled with the skin priorities but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Obviously I need the render skin to remain, and I don't like workarounds of adding another plaster layer or complicated 'patches' of lines and fills - it takes away the editability whilst some windows may move - a work in progress.

TIA for any help.

P.S. Whilst I'm asking - what about the line that's showing up at the window edge where the front nib projects? I'm I overlooking an easy way to remove that?

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:14:12 GMT

Hi Kim,

Please see attached image for the settings that seem to work for me.

I think the trick you missed is ticking the correct 'turn plaster' option and also ensuring the number of skins turned is correct too.

I think it assumes the last and first layer of a composite to possibly be plaster/render and if it's not, it gets confused (like me sometimes!!)

If you still have no luck post a screen shot of the cavity closure settings of the window you are using. Maybe someone else will have a better idea.

Regarding the stray line on the nib, I think it has something to do with the skins turning incorrectly, so solve that first! (It hasn't appeared on mine)

Hope you sort it OK!

btw, the wall reference line is on the outside (top) of the wall in my example. Its position will effect the settings.

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:05:18 GMT

You need to check the settings of the boxes to turn the plaster on the inside, outside or both.
See attached

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:09:50 GMT

The lines appearing at the reveal edge look as though they are because of your reveal construction method. Have you selected the stepped reveal (like you would with a stone detail infront of a timber frame)? - that could cause what you are seeing.

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Wed, 02 May 2007 13:36:25 GMT

Thanks everyone for your detailed replies - I thought no-one had answered because I didn't get the usual email notification that there was a response to my post.

The difficulty I'm having seems to be with the number of skins in my composite, but I can't change those because that's how the walls need to appear on plan for construction.

I still have more skins than in the examples kindly provided, and can't get the closure to finish correctly.

I'm coming up with a worse situation now on another project - the skins go like this:
- 100mm stone
- 100mm cavity
- 50mm insulation
- 200mm block
- 120mm stud
- 30mm dryling

... making a 600 thick wall. I need the closure to meet at the window as shown on the left in the attachment - all the other examples are different settings, including the suggested ones, attempting to achieve this.

Perhaps we should have a wish as to how far the number of skins return - i.e. turn two skins in 3 levels and turn plaster on opposite side (however thick that 'plaster' is, in this case 100mm of stone.

I never needed to do this before as I lived in countries that didn't use cavity wall construction, certainly not with so many layers of material and finish.

Sigh...

GLD gurus? How can a non-GDL person fix the settings in the windows to achieve this? (simply?)

Thanks again for any help ...

Kim

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Wed, 02 May 2007 16:11:08 GMT

Hi again Kim,

I think that wall looks too complicated for the standard window cavity closure to cope. As you say, it really needs to turn one skin three deep at the front, and two skins three deep at the back.

The best solution (and the simplest) is to use a patch in this case.

You will lose out on the 'intelligence' of the window and cavity closure combined, but it will work.

Just set the window or empty opening to have no cavity closure and place the patch over the top, and mirror as necessary.

The best way to create the patch may be to temporarily set the window and cavity closure the closest you can to the way you want, create the patch, then open and edit the patch as a library part.

Hope thats helpful!

Pete.

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Wed, 02 May 2007 16:38:56 GMT

Thanks Pete - A patch is what I'll do then.

That's what I ended up doing on the previous project I wrote about, but I thought maybe I was missing some functionality because of my lack of working with cavity walls, and maybe I'd overlooked some setting.

As I started on a new project (and I'm not the one who decides what the wall construction will be, BTW) I thought it would be really good to have a clean model without patches for drafting purposes.

Thanks so much for all your help and advice and for taking the time to post with modeled examples

I may link this to the GDL forum and see if anyone has a fix - maybe a few lines of GDL in window/door parts could solve it.

Cheers,

Kim

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Wed, 02 May 2007 16:53:01 GMT

For any one who needs further info on the workflow for patchs :-

The patch basically creates a 2d only set of lines and opaque fills to cover (or bodge!! ) any areas that would be complex to model correctly.
One advantage is you can make a change to the patch at some point by modifying the library part, and all other instances will be updated as well.

1) First use the marquee tool to highlight the area you want to use as the basis of the patch.

2) Go to 'Document' then 'Document extras' then 'Create patch' and then save the library part into a loaded library.

3) Using the object tool, find the patch and insert it in the drawing.

4) You can open and edit the patch to remove any excess lines and fills or add new ones by going to 'File' 'Library and objects' then 'Open object'.

Don't forget to press save before closing it!!

Cheers,
Pete.

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Wed, 02 May 2007 17:42:30 GMT

kimfromzim wrote:
Thanks Pete - A patch is what I'll do then.

That's what I ended up doing on the previous project I wrote about, but I thought maybe I was missing some functionality because of my lack of working with cavity walls, and maybe I'd overlooked some setting.

As I started on a new project (and I'm not the one who decides what the wall construction will be, BTW) I thought it would be really good to have a clean model without patches for drafting purposes.

Thanks so much for all your help and advice and for taking the time to post with modeled examples

I may link this to the GDL forum and see if anyone has a fix - maybe a few lines of GDL in window/door parts could solve it.

Cheers,

Kim

I think what you require is perfectly feasible, it just needs a bit more code 'behind-the-scenes' to get it to work properly.

The problem may be fundamentally how Graphisoft have set up the composite fills and the laws governing their interaction. We shouldn't need to add few lines of GDL to get it to work the way we want. They should be in the code already!

The way composites interact seem to be one of the things that gives people the biggest headaches. In order to do anything other than the basics needs a workaround or a bodge. Maybe GS need to start afresh and think about actually physically representing the different skins perhaps. This could be a far more powerful and adaptable way of doing it.
Maybe we will see it in ArchiCAD 11? Who knows?

(BTW I don't know if you spotted it before but this recent thread here may be useful, as I know you are dealing with lots of skins. Again, another work around!!)

Cheers!
Pete.

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Fri, 04 May 2007 06:23:19 GMT

Peter wrote:
(BTW I don't know if you spotted it before but this recent thread here may be useful, as I know you are dealing with lots of skins. Again, another work around!!)

Thanks for the link, Pete. It's definitely worth looking into. As you say, another work around, but it may be a better one than patches. At least more realistic. And editing should be easier as the model changes. I hope.

Many thanks,
K

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Djordje — Sat, 05 May 2007 16:30:32 GMT

The notifications come if you switch them on ... in the bottom lef tof the screen is the Watch this topic link. If it says Watch this topic, that means that you are not watching at the moment, and will get no notification.

As for the turning of the skins - as there is as yet no function to turn skins from both sides of the same wall, maybe slicing the wall down the middle to two walls might help? Yep, a management nightmare, never mind the grouping. Let's say the internal composite is a bearing layer with plaster, and the external is the cladding and the cavity? Ref lines outside, so the nonreflines sides join.

Have not actually tried it here - heck, I envy you guys for having multi layer walls and cavities!!!! Not in your teeth of course 😉

This is a good item for the wish list (skin turning both inside and outside), and on the path to the assemblies, that a lot of alpha and beta testers as well as more active visitors of this forum strongly advocate as the real VB (I refuse to use BIM) way ...

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Fri, 18 May 2007 18:19:23 GMT

Not for me they don't.

The picture below does not show any 'watch this topic' and when I write these messages, just the way I'm writing this one, I have checkmarked 'Notify me when a reply is posted'. (Pictorial proof of this will be attached in my next post - won't allow me to attach both in one).

Not only that, but it's set as my default preference and always has been, since I joined the this format of the forum in October 2003.

I have also emailed gsforumadmin about the problem, but have received no response whatsoever.

I only had a look now at your post, to check if there were any more responses about the cavity composites, as I wouldn't know if there were or weren't as I don't get notified at all. Please someone look into this and see what's wrong.

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Fri, 18 May 2007 18:21:06 GMT

Here's the picture of the checkmarked message preference.

Re: Incorrect cavity closure

Anonymous — Fri, 18 May 2007 21:29:33 GMT

Djordje wrote:
As for the turning of the skins - ...Let's say the internal composite is a bearing layer with plaster, and the external is the cladding and the cavity? Ref lines outside, so the nonreflines sides join.

Well it's a good idea, but the problem is not just a management nightmare, but it would be quite impossible to make the window in a double wall like that, the window being the reason for the problem in the first place.

Another thing - I can't get any cavity closures at all on 'empty door'. Now what use is that?

Oh well - maybe 11 will be an improvement in this area...