topic Re: RoofMaker library part ? in Modeling

RoofMaker library part ?

Steve Jepson — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:47:24 GMT

Is there a library part I can use for a plate that needs to pitch in two directions?

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:02:47 GMT

Steve,
If you want the stud wall with the double top plate like in your photo,
Use the wall extras stud wall.
Trim a wall to a roof, select the wall,and use the wall extra.
The studs and top plate will be level but all you do is
click the top edge button in the object settings and the
studs are trimmed and the top plate follows the roof underside.
The wall can be at any angle in plan.
If you want just the top plate use the roofmaker object strut 12_1.
rotated about the Z axis to any angle and then calculate the
pitch angle and enter it in the object settings.
Several roofmaker objects use diferential height from one
end to the other instead of pitch angle to set pitch angle.
Again no problem with angle in plan.
If you want the object to have "role" about it's long axis
use the roofmaker object "beam 2_1".
Peter Devlin

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Steve Jepson — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:37:33 GMT

Peter wrote:
If you want just the top plate use the roofmaker object strut 12_1.
rotated about the Z axis to any angle and then calculate the pitch angle and enter it in the object settings.

It is the 12_1. strut, and I do just want the top plate.
It is not hard to model but I need it to be show up correctly in my materials list.

The roof is 10:12 (39.81 deg). slope of the strut (plate) along the wall is 30.51 deg. How do I rotate about the other axis? Do I need to switch thickness for width and stretch it the other way?

I tried all of the roof framing objects and none of them let you change more thatn one pitch variable. I think it will take a new line in the GDL script. I don't know how to do that very well. I was able (with Laszlonagy help) to add the script that will show the actual lenght on the slope to all of my roof parts. It works great! I am sure it would be just as easy to add an aditional pitch variable. If someone knows how, please let me know.

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:15:59 GMT

Steve,
You rotate about the Z axis in plan either by setting the angle
in the objects settings or use the Rotate command in plan.
I am unsure about the meaning of your second question.
I do know these library parts have an origin so you
have to have them oriented correctly for stretching and having
the pitch be positive in elevation if you want them to slope
upward from the "Z" origin of the object.
Peter Devlin

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:41:42 GMT

Steve,
I just looked at your post again and it has changed.
Anyway I think that we need to agree on some terms
so we can understand each other.
When talking about angles in three different axes,
I have found it useful to use the sailing and flying terms
"pitch", "role", and "yaw",
Pitch being rotation about the "X" axis, "role" being rotation about
the "Y" axis, and "yaw" being rotation about the "Z" axis.

In the context of your statement about the roofmaker objects
not allowing you to change more than one angle,
I was looking at the "Beam 2_1" object and you can
set the "pitch" by setting the low end high end difference parameter,
the "role" by setting the rotation parameter, and the "yaw" can
be set by rotating the object in plan.
Three different angles can be set, but maybe I am missing something.

Peter Devlin

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Steve Jepson — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:49:16 GMT

I think beam2-1 will do the job Peter. I am still playing with the settings.

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Mar 2005 00:31:23 GMT

Steve,
Glad to hear your getting these objects
to do what you want.
Peter Devlin

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Steve Jepson — Tue, 08 Mar 2005 01:21:31 GMT

Actually, I dont think the beam will work either. The settings are way to squirly. Change the rataions angel and the pitch changes, chage the purlin rotation and lenght needs to change. It turns out to be a game of chase your tail around and around. I was never able to get the beam to work. Try it yourself and see. It has the settings for a potential solution but to acheive it may not be possible. Trial and error is not a method likley to work for this. Look again at the original picture. The plate that is shown is correct except for the slope it also needs to match the bottom of the rafters.

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Mar 2005 02:22:06 GMT

Steve,
You say:
Change the rataions angel and the pitch changes, chage the purlin rotation and lenght needs to change.

I am trying to understand which rotations you are referring to.
Which angle is the "rataions angel" ? Is it the role angle, or the yaw angle?
Which angle is the "purlin rotation" ? Pitch, role, or yaw ?
I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I need to understand what
you are referring too. Would you mind using these terms to help me out ?

Looking at your screen shot, I see the pitched plate has no "role"
I take it that you want it to have "role" to lay flat against the underside
of the rafters.

As I understand the problem, it is to make a plate that has
a pitch to match the roof slope at a yaw that is at an angle to the rafters,
and a role adjusted to these other variables.
I can see that these values must co-vary.

Can I assume that you start by creating a roof at a certain pitch
then establish a yaw angle (the angle of the plate in plan)
and then adjust the pitch and role of the plate member accordingly ?

I will do as you suggest and try to do this with the roofmaker parts.
If I fail perhaps we can collaborate on library part that can.

Peter Devlin

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Mar 2005 03:02:04 GMT

Steve,
I tried making the plate using roofmaker's "Beam 2_1.
It seemed to be working until I made the role angle non-zero.
I haven't checked yet but it seems as though the role parameter
is not coded correctly in the script. My guess is the rotation in the
script is about an axis laying in the X,Y plane rather than about
the major axis of the object.
I will look into it.
Peter Devlin

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Steve Jepson — Tue, 08 Mar 2005 04:37:31 GMT

Part of the problem describing which direction the plate needs to be rotated is because the beam2_1 variables are as clear as mud! Thats why I use pictures. How do you describe how the rafter rotates and and tilts when you select the "Purlin on Top of Rafters" option or the "Purlin Rotated" option. There are no clues as to what these functions are doing. There is nothing to tell you what the result of these selections is going to be. Also the ability to set any role or yaw is not an option unless you select one of these options? How would anyone be able to tell which of these needs to be turned on? I am trying to find some way to angle a roof so I can try using blocking for this. I think there must be a reasonable solution. Keep in mind. I have no problem modeling the plate as it should be, my dilemma is that I want it to be a part of my materials list. If i use walls, slabs, roofs, mesh, etc...I don't get exactly what I was after. How to do this is only a curiosity. The plate I used will be adequate for a material list.

How is anyone supposed to predict what these options will do?

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Mar 2005 05:02:18 GMT

Steve,
On the issue of how to tell what different parameters do in a
library part. The width of the text fields for the description
of parameters is very limited so scripters can't explain
what the parameter means or does. We have to rely on the user
to experiment and figure it out for themselves.
In AC versions after 7 this problem is componded
by the fact the parameter fields are further truncated
in the settings dialogue.

On the issue of material lists, can't you, after you have made
the shape you want using the AC tools, save the shape as
a GDL object with an appropriate name ?
Would that not work for your material list ?
Peter Devlin

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Steve Jepson — Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:35:50 GMT

Even with experementation you can not determine or quantify exactly what result of some of the parameters of beam2_1 will do. I would guess that only the person who ever knew was the person who created this part and they have probably forgotten. Some of the options are only functional if you select one of the others but you cant tell how which options will effect the others or to what degree. I played around with it for hours and did manage to gain some controle but not enough to make it a usable part for this particular function. It is not a very common applicaton for this part anyway.

As far as the material list data goes, I wanted to include this part in my interactive list for Roof Framing. My schedule adds together the actual lengths of all the rafters, hips, valleys, etc...I do not know how to add that kind of infromation into to the kind of parts I can make from scratch. This is an expiromental project that has every peice of wood required to build the house modeled perfectly. Including all blocking, bracing, backing etc...it includes lots of things that I would normaly consider to be a complete waste of time. This is one of the last parts that will go into the model.

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Ralph Wessel — Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:43:59 GMT

Steve wrote:
Is there a library part I can use for a plate that needs to pitch in two directions?

Steve,

All FrameWright objects can be rotated freely in 3D, either by using our Rotate tool which can rotate any selection of objects in unison or by setting the rotation parameters manually. Their are two rotation parameters for each object to enable them to be orientated to any plane.

I've set up an example in the attached image (fig. 1). You can use the FrameWright Rotate and Split tools to elevate the wall and trim the studs to the roof line (fig. 2). You could then Rotate again to align your view to the wall and place the top plate at the correct pitch (fig. 3). The other rotation for the top plate can be set by using Rotate again at look along the top plate (fig. 4). The Assembly tools can then automatically restore the framing to its correct position (fig. 5). The finished result is shown in fig. 6. Note that figures 1 to 5 were taken from the 2D (plan) view.

You can read more about FrameWright at http://www.encina.co.uk/framewright_pro.html

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Steve Jepson — Tue, 08 Mar 2005 18:12:49 GMT

That is exacly what I want to do Ralph! I bet I would love using FramWright. Can you get a good materials list from it?

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Ralph Wessel — Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:35:07 GMT

Steve wrote:
That is exacly what I want to do Ralph! I bet I would love using FramWright. Can you get a good materials list from it?

Steve,

Yes - it has quite detailed scheduling designed specifically for framing, i.e. it calculates the true length of the timber and makes allowance for jointing if necessary. You can read more info at http://www.encina.co.uk/timber_schedule.html

You can also download FrameWright from http://www.encina.co.uk/software.html

This can be run as a demo by running ArchiCAD 9 without the dongle. You can also request a 1 month trial registration number from http://www.encina.co.uk/demo_request.html

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Steve Jepson — Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:26:25 GMT

I checked out the FrameWright product and I could only find one thing it can do that I can't already do with ArchiCAD. That was the abiltiy to layout all of the parts flat for easy editing. I dont think I would find that usefull unless I were doing a lot of timber frame plans. It think it may have some GDL parts I don't have also.

The only thing I need to be completly happy with ArchiCAD would be a object I can control the pitch and yaw with better, and I don't use that part very often anyway. ArchiCAD probably has this but I just don't know how to do it yet. I think I used to have an object that worked for this.

I have a feeling that RoofMaker beam2_1 is the wright part, but it is not working the way it is supposed to.

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Anonymous — Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:27:31 GMT

Steve,
"beam2_1" is not going to work for your purposes
because the "angle" parameter rotates the object
about an axis laying in the X,Y plane
not about the objects major axis as it should.
I have an object that I believe works correctly and you
are welcome to it, but in one of your previous posts you seemed to
indicate that the issue was not that important, so I did not mention it.

You wrote:
"Keep in mind. I have no problem modeling the plate as it should be,
my dilemma is that I want it to be a part of my materials list.
If i use walls, slabs, roofs, mesh, etc...I don't get exactly what I was after.
How to do this is only a curiosity.
The plate I used will be adequate for a material list. "

Peter Devlin

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Steve Jepson — Wed, 09 Mar 2005 22:14:14 GMT

Send me the part Peter, I would like to try it out.

jepsondesign@comcast.net

Re: RoofMaker library part ?

Ralph Wessel — Wed, 09 Mar 2005 23:30:53 GMT

Steve wrote:
I checked out the FrameWright product and I could only find one thing it can do that I can't already do with ArchiCAD. That was the abiltiy to layout all of the parts flat for easy editing. I dont think I would find that usefull unless I were doing a lot of timber frame plans. It think it may have some GDL parts I don't have also.

FrameWright was specifically written to provide operations that framers could not do with ArchiCAD - they loved the software, but it didn't go far enough. Graphisoft featured one of our success stories at http://www.graphisoft.com/community/success_stories/oakframe.html
The full article can be downloaded as a pdf from http://www.graphisoft.com/ftp/pdf/OakFrameCaseStudy.pdf

FrameWright has a number of features which are definitely not in ArchiCAD (refer to the attached image for some examples):

- A 3D rotation tool: Any selection of framing objects can be rotated in 3D about a user-defined axis (reminiscent of ArchiCAD's 2D rotation). 3D rotation appears repeatedly on the ArchiCAD wish-list. A rotation parameter in objects is quite useless for this purpose because each object will have to be rotated and position independently. See http://www.encina.co.uk/rotate_tool.html
- A 3D cutting tool: Any selection of framing objects (including custom profiles) can be split by a user-defined plane, somewhat like the split tool on a slab. Objects can be repeatedly cut and rotated to form very complex shapes. Changing length by parameter or stretching does not deform or detach the cuts either. Doing the same through an 'end angle' parameter is really laborious by comparison. See http://www.encina.co.uk/split_tool.html
- All the vertices in the objects have hotspots irrespective of the complexity of the rotations and cuts applied.
- FrameWright provides working planes for 3D operations (as you discovered) and the creation of custom framing section/elevation profiles.

FrameWright Pro goes further with built-in scheduling and cutting lists, with options for timber grades and unit pricing, jointing, standard size increments, etc. It can also group timber based on size, type, etc. The dimensions of length/width/depth are always understood correctly irrespective of cutting or orientation. And all timber can be automatically numbered and labelled.