topic Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit in Modeling

Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Anonymous — Sat, 06 Jan 2007 17:30:17 GMT

I would like to know if Revit has anything like Constructor.

Also I believe GS should include some king of version of Constructor in to Archicad, especially I am thinking of the Control and 5d Presenter. This would give Architects a way of competing for larger project where Constructor is used.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Scott Davis — Sat, 06 Jan 2007 18:21:19 GMT

There are companies using Revit for construction, modeling 2D plans from the Arch to run interference checking, build construction phasing simulations, and to get material take offs for estimating. Here's an interesting blog about one of those companies:

http://www.bimx.blogspot.com/

Revit doesn't have built in cost estimating (although it used to have an RS Means cost estimating tool built in). Through phasing in Revit, one can do construction simulation and scheduling. And logistics can be handled through using families (some of which come with Revit) such as cranes, portable Field Offices, port-o-potties, scaffolding, etc.

I haven't seen Constructor in action, only read about what it can do on the website. What else does it do?

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Anonymous — Sat, 06 Jan 2007 21:40:44 GMT

Scott wrote:
............I haven't seen Constructor in action, only read about what it can do on the website. What else does it do?

See for yourself, it's powerful. Watch each of the (4) presentation than comment.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Anonymous — Sat, 06 Jan 2007 21:42:26 GMT

Sorry here is the link

http://www.graphisoft.com/products/construction/

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Anonymous — Sat, 06 Jan 2007 22:25:56 GMT

From what I've seen of Constructor, its best part is an excellent project management time line interface. It does not do interference checking as far as I know. The best program I've seen for that is NavisWorks.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Anonymous — Sat, 06 Jan 2007 23:00:55 GMT

Yes interference has to be a part of Archicad but I am impressed the most of the Flowline Scheduling and all the rest. I an Architect I prepare on many projects a Gantt chart, but this is something else.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Anonymous — Sun, 07 Jan 2007 15:08:22 GMT

Scott wrote:
There are companies using Revit for construction, modeling 2D plans from the Arch to run interference checking, build construction phasing simulations, and to get material take offs for estimating. Here's an interesting blog about one of those companies:
http://www.bimx.blogspot.com/

Interestingly enough, Laura, a Revit modeler in a construction company, puts in her wish list for 2007, in first place, "1. BIM software that is made specifically for contractors (but also works with our current tools). So basically an Autodesk version of Constructor."

see: http://bimx.blogspot.com/2006/12/my-wish-list.html

hmmm...

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Scott Davis — Sun, 07 Jan 2007 16:46:27 GMT

Sure, a nice compliment to Revit Bulding, Structures, and Systems would be Revit Construction.....but also realize from her blog how well her company is doing with a product that is not purpose built for construction yet.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Ignacio Azpiazu — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 02:38:17 GMT

For Constructor to be a useful tool there needs to be a setup with the complexity of (1) a normal CAD/BIM setup times (2) a cost estimating package setup.

Most architecture offices find the (1) ArchiCAD setup itself an insurmountable hurdle.

Also, and especially so in the US, the architectural drawing/model is a very loose fit to the building. The architect does not produce shop drawings or 'shop models'. Even the structure and structural details can change a lot depending on who will actually build the thing, and that is only known after 'construction documents'.

On the other hand most US construction companies are 'virtual' companies, they bid and manage subs and have *no* (2) true cost estimating system at all because they don't need it --their subs do that, and each sub has his own system or lack of system.

If the complexity of both (1) and (2) individually is beyond most practices, the complexity of (1) times (2) can be dealt with by a Skanska or a Toyota prefabs and I don't know who else.

For those reasons I think that Constructor can work only for systems or prefab builders (say, Butler, if they didn't have their own system, or if Constructor could be customized into something better than what they have), or perhaps large production builders with their own teams and equipment that are really into finetuning their construction and cost estimating systems. I suspect that for a small design-builder the investment in systems setup would be too high, and in any case the complexity of the problem at hand can be dealt it faster, more flexibly, and as accurately (given that the accuracy of the result will depend on the accuracy of the setup) with tools that don't need that investment.

Of course Graphisoft is aware of all this from the start, and that is why they made Constructor a separate product with a totally different marketing approach.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 08:43:41 GMT

Scott wrote:
...but also realize from her blog how well her company is doing with a product that is not purpose built for construction yet.

Laura´s work is amazing!
Now imagine if she would be allowed to do it with an adequate tool, like constructor.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 12:38:40 GMT

Ignacio wrote:
On the other hand most US construction companies are 'virtual' companies, they bid and manage subs and have *no* (2) true cost estimating system at all because they don't need it --their subs do that, and each sub has his own system or lack of system.

If the complexity of both (1) and (2) individually is beyond most practices, the complexity of (1) times (2) can be dealt with by a Skanska or a Toyota prefabs and I don't know who else.

For those reasons I think that Constructor can work only for systems or prefab builders (say, Butler, if they didn't have their own system, or if Constructor could be customized into something better than what they have), or perhaps large production builders with their own teams and equipment that are really into finetuning their construction and cost estimating systems. I suspect that for a small design-builder the investment in systems setup would be too high, and in any case the complexity of the problem at hand can be dealt it faster, more flexibly, and as accurately (given that the accuracy of the result will depend on the accuracy of the setup) with tools that don't need that investment.

Of course Graphisoft is aware of all this from the start, and that is why they made Constructor a separate product with a totally different marketing approach.

Your facts are correct but you are blind to the larger picture.
Architects do cost and time estimates and in a BIM world it should be done as Constructur does it.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Scott Davis — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 17:41:04 GMT

Krippahl wrote:
Laura´s work is amazing!
Now imagine if she would be allowed to do it with an adequate tool, like constructor.

If the company wanted to buy and manage another piece of software.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Ignacio Azpiazu — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 18:29:03 GMT

Adalbert wrote:
Your facts are correct but you are blind to the larger picture.
Architects do cost and time estimates and in a BIM world it should be done as Constructur does it.

If my facts are correct, then the correct conclusion is that the larger picture shows that 'BIM estimating' ('the way Constructor does it') just does not belong in the architects' time-and-cost-estimating world.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 19:08:27 GMT

This is actually very different in every country. And we are actually right now (as the whole industry) in the time of big/huge changes. We are probably going to see new standards to be developed.
-Who is modeling Construction?
-Who is making Tasks splitting? (ex. Pour Sequencing)
-Who is making schedules?
-Who is making Blind Estimates?
-Who is preparing model for Estimates?
-When Finally model from Architect will be a legal document?

etc.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:18:12 GMT

Ignacio wrote:
Adalbert wrote:
Your facts are correct but you are blind to the larger picture.
Architects do cost and time estimates and in a BIM world it should be done as Constructur does it.

If my facts are correct, then the correct conclusion is that the larger picture shows that 'BIM estimating' ('the way Constructor does it') just does not belong in the architects' time-and-cost-estimating world.

If cost does not belong to the Architect
Time does not belong to the Architect
Structure does not belong to the Architect
Lighting does not belong to the Architect
Power does not belong to the Architect
HVAC does not belong to the Architect
Energy compliance does not belong to the Architect
Fire protection does not belong to the Architect
Alarm and IT does not belong to the Architect
Plumbing does not belong to the Architect
Site design does not belong to the Architect
Hydrology does not belong to the Architect
Roads do not belong to the Architect

That that leaves only Means of Egress and Furniture to the Architect.
The rest is all the subjective as fashion is and does not require a license

In fact if we let engineers take care of Means of Egress and Decorators of furniture then the profession does not need to be licensed.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Dwight — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:23:36 GMT

Boss belong to the Architect.

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Ignacio Azpiazu — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:26:45 GMT

[I don't question that architects that want to control cost estimating as well as lighting and structural and interior design and etc. have a better chance of delivering a better service and product, what I am saying is that Constructor-type-setups are not the right tool for the cost estimating architects should be expected to do and occasionally do.]

15 years ago [EDIT: it was 1997, that is *10* years ago, I scrwed up my estimate] I had a detailed setup for cost estimating (for a general contractor that did exclusively supermarkets, that is to say, the projects were highly repetitive so you could develop a standard template, invest in finetuning it, get feeback and improve it, etc.) using Minicad (old VectorWorks) and Excel. The model produced a Minicad spreadsheet that I just exported, opened and copy-pasted into a pretty complex Excel template, and boom, you had your estimates and man hours and investment curves and all that.

That *works*, *today*, with technology that has been available for more than a decade, with a lot more flexibility, with a minimal learning curve, with less investment in software and setup. The Constructor setup is a whole different story which again I think makes sense only for systems builders or highly repetitive production builders who actually want to invest in finetuning their systems (perhaps when the market cools down and things become more competitive).

Re: Archicad - Constructor -Revit

Richard Morrison — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:54:25 GMT

Ignacio wrote:
15 years ago I had a detailed setup for cost estimating (for a general contractor that did exclusively supermarkets, that is to say, the projects were highly repetitive so you could develop a standard template, invest in finetuning it, get feeback and improve it, etc.) using Minicad (old VectorWorks) and Excel. The model produced a Minicad spreadsheet that I just exported, opened and copy-pasted into a pretty complex Excel template, and boom, you had your estimates and man hours and investment curves and all that.

That *works*, *today*, with technology that has been available for more than a decade, with a lot more flexibility, with a minimal learning curve, with less investment in software and setup.

It drives me crazy that I can't _reasonably_ do this with Archicad, yet have no problem getting usable quantity/cost information from programs that cost 1/2 as much, or less. (e.g. Vectorworks, Chief Architect, Softplan, and who knows what else.)