topic Re: Largest project acchived in BIM. in Modeling

Largest project acchived in BIM.

Anonymous — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:26:52 GMT

Hello everyone. AC, Revit, VW, AP users. I work in construction company. Right now we came across big (1.2 mil sqft) hospital project, and together with architects looking for best BIM software that will be able to run this project. Right now we are testing Revit (mostly because of architect) but when project goes into 250 kilo sqft hardware starts to say NONO (experience from other projects). It's a big problem. Hardware is not the problem (state of the art for today standards). Any experiences in that area?

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Djordje — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:38:12 GMT

Take a look at Eureka Towers, by Fender Katsalidis, in Australia. I would think that it is a lot bigger than your project. There used to be an extensive article on the Graphisoft site.

Explore IFC export of Revit, and its import into Archicad. You will need it.

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

TomWaltz — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:47:53 GMT

I think the largest I have worked on myself is about 120,000 SF.

edited Nov 5, 2007: OK, bump that up a bit.... my current firm averages 500,000 SF or so....

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Dwight — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:05:00 GMT

Think of me as a schludense, but:

Who cares how many square feet the project is? That is not what is going to make it "big" or difficult from a computer standpoint. How much building detail will there be? Especially in 3D? Making the machine haul everything around all the time is what bogs a system down.

The question, as with any sizeable project, is how to manage layer sets to view only task-relevant material so that graphics displays can remain snappy and saves can be quick. I'm happy to be corrected by thoiose with more experience, but when I encounter a problem project, it is because the user hasn't enough RAM, disk space or element view discipline, NOT because the program couldn't handle it.

Be sure to assess REVIT's layer/view management against what Archicad does.

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Karl Ottenstein — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:20:47 GMT

Dwight wrote:
Who cares how many square feet the project is? That is not what is going to make it "big" or difficult from a computer standpoint. How much building detail will there be? Especially in 3D? ...

Exactly. The new polycount addon (Goodies) for AC 10 is a good way to check the polygon count for your model, an aspect that will slow things down.

Today's reality is that we still need to think about the LOD (level of detail) of our models in order to obtain high performance. With future hardware and fine tuning of software, this will be less of a concern in the future.

Example: a firm was experiencing a 5 minute delay in the generation of the 3D window for a large multiuse project. It turned out that they had 1700 windows that were all set to a high level of detail for frame, trim, etc. - producing a very high polygon count for the total model.

Sure, that's how we'd like to model - but the reality is that the high level of detail will only be visible in details, enlarged building sections, and perspective views where those windows are "close" (relative term - depends on DPI and final output size) to the camera. High performance was returned by changing all windows to 'simple' except the windows that matched the kinds of situations just mentioned.

No doubt similar tricks will help in Revit, although I've heard that Revit bogs down at lower polygon counts than ArchiCAD. (Don't even try it in SketchUp - it bogs down at pretty low polycounts.)

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Dwight — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:34:01 GMT

But Polycount only addresses the 3D model.
And you don't need to count polygons - you need view discipline - it is all relative.

I'm also concerned for the absolute number of elements the 2D engine needs to render, because that is where you spend your time with a large project - lot of labels and text, eh? and speed here is again achieved by creating the right layer view sets.

So many users are like Little Red Riding Hood gaily skipping off into the forest with her little basket of port, pate and porcupine pie for Grannie, they forget to manage graphic information and get seduced by the wolf.

"La la la la la. Ouch."

Of course it is the new millennium so anything can happen. I know that in 2007, Little Red Riding Hood, confronted by a talking, standing wolf dressed like a man would think "No stringy Grannie guts for him. If he lets me manage his act in Vegas it will be venison every night for both of us."

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

TomWaltz — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:42:07 GMT

all true, but you don't see many architects listing their project work by polygon count... it's likely their concern will be "Can Archicad handle a job of XX square feet", not "Can Archicad handle a job of 100 Polygons per square meter"

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Karl Ottenstein — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:42:44 GMT

Dwight wrote:
But Polycount only addresses the 3D model.
And you don't need to count polygons - you need view discipline - it is all relative.

I'm also concerned for the absolute number of elements the 2D engine needs to render, because that is where you spend your time with a large project - lot of labels and text, eh? and speed here is again achieved by creating the right layer view sets."

Hi Dwight,

I've never received a report of purely 2D elements (text, etc.) causing a performance problem. (Those 2D elements that are projected from 3D elements are another matter.) Have you or anyone else had seen text cause a performance problem (on a current computer)?

Absolutely agree about proper layer management, of course. For large models, this sometimes means creating layer combos that do not correspond to the final output drawings, but to working views that will perform quickly.

Another performance tip for large-project people is the 'show elements in 3D' dialog. Suppose those windows that bog everything down really must be in the level of detail indicated. Users should remember that they can turn off windows/doors (for example) in that dialog - and then see just empty openings - to speed up other 3D work.

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Dwight — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:22:47 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
all true, but you don't see many architects listing their project work by polygon count... it's likely their concern will be "Can Archicad handle a job of XX square feet", not "Can Archicad handle a job of 100 Polygons per square meter"

Let them talk.
We know the secret.

New measure of efficacy: p/m2. hahaha.

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

TomWaltz — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:32:59 GMT

Dwight wrote:
TomWaltz wrote:
all true, but you don't see many architects listing their project work by polygon count... it's likely their concern will be "Can Archicad handle a job of XX square feet", not "Can Archicad handle a job of 100 Polygons per square meter"
Let them talk.
We know the secret.

New measure of efficacy: p/m2. hahaha.

Karl must be working with a new client... that explains the helmet 😉

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Dwight — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:04:43 GMT

Karl wrote:
Dwight wrote:
I've never received a report of purely 2D elements (text, etc.) causing a performance problem. (Those 2D elements that are projected from 3D elements are another matter.) Have you or anyone else had seen text cause a performance problem (on a current computer)?

Fair Enough, and me neither, but they've gone to the bother of a dialog box for decreased 2D rendering quality for a reason - OpenGL hits its redraw ceiling and voom: jerky and slow.

I admit to speculating. Has anyone had a drawing failure because of linework, symbol and text size overloading? I have many objects (with buzzillions of line segments in the symbol) that cause quite a slowdown in redraw.....

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Anonymous — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:39:05 GMT

I agree that we don't measure level of detail by sqarefootage of the building, but this is the only measure (together with the building type) that you have on the beginning of the project. It is the pretty good benchmark. And 1.2 mil. sqft is not that small. It is 111500 sq meters. You can make 45 level building with 50m x 50m (165ft x 165ft) in plan.
Anyway it is a lot.

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Dwight — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:45:31 GMT

And if this building was going to be a plumbing fixture showroom with 1000 little rooms, say, the outcome is different than if it is a warehouse for gigantic granite blocks.

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Anonymous — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 21:12:30 GMT

That's I said "(together with the building type)". On the other hands no one is including show room booths with it its equipment during design/construction phase. Dwight do you know any other better method to define size of the building that works?

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Dwight — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 21:56:06 GMT

I am being the devil's advocate here to show that:

-- We can't anticipate what the file size or the maximum drawing load on the graphics card or the number and file size of undos stored in the temporary file and their impact on computer performance will be by looking at building area or volume.

-- There might be some rules of thumb established for curves versus straights or bitmaps versus vector fills, or placed images or PROJECT2 commands in GDL objects but we all see the effects of these choices very quickly - before any project gets very large.

-- No matter what, on a large or small project, viewed polygons and linework need management for productivity - you can't be Little Red Riding Hood in the woods strewing porcupine pate and expect not to meet the wolf.

My fear is that my collegues will blithly adopt building volume as an indicator of poor software performance when the real culprit is bad project management. Proper management lets you extend the power of your computer to do huge work.

So the naiive question is "how far can i get in making a big project WITHOUT using ANY project management?"

The sophisticated question would be "How best can the team cope with a project that will be bigger than anything we've done before, expecting that the visulaizing resources will be taxed." It is parallel to what i teach about preparing a visualizing plan from the getgo: a file management plan. From the getgo. Those seconds waiting for redraws really add up.

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Anonymous — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:17:56 GMT

Thank you Dwight. Not exactly what I had in mind, but thank you anyway. My question was based on Area size because that is tipical architect thinking. Somebody who have any experience with regular 3D package (3dsmax, cinema ex.) know what you are talking about, but for average CADJOE it is magic. Who checks out what RESOL value current object have (hoping that designer of that object gave you that option and you are happy AC user). In other software it might be even more difficult. Not adding stupid things (like detailed furniture or equipment) to the project is one thing. Lowering quality of required elements (like segmentation of curved walls) totally different. Asking this question I was hoping to get answer like:

-We did 500.000 sqft residential project with no problem both on plan and in 3D window.

or (on the other hand):

-We did 300.000 sqft hospital and we had no problems on plan, but section were generated slow, and 3D was total disaster.

Anyway. Maybe some with that kind of answer now?

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Dwight — Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:36:37 GMT

Good questing for the answer. My point is that you can't tell how well a firm managed the process by having them say there was trouble or not.

Anyone who has trained Archicad users has encountered the "Nightmare of the 10,000 Trees." This is where a beginner finds a detailed tree symbol and loads the plan view, unaware that they are bombing the redraw.

It can be like that at many less-obvious levels in a project.

PErhaps we should start a thread on project speed killers?

Allow me: Go to Form Category Working in Archicad.

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

SeaGeoff — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:07:08 GMT

Dwight wrote:
Has anyone had a drawing failure because of linework, symbol and text size overloading?

Not a failure but a slowdown. Complex site plans with lots of 2D vertices: tree symbols, squiggly-line bushes, symbol line types, etc.

With regard to ArchiCAD's handling of Level of Detail (LOD), it leaves a lot to be desired. It should be adjustable by view (by way of a Model View Option), which I believe is how Revit handles it.

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Dwight — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:25:27 GMT

See the topic "Project Speed Killers" in Working in Archicad.

Re: Largest project acchived in BIM.

Erika Epstein — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:36:01 GMT

Miki wrote:
Hello everyone. AC, Revit, VW, AP users. I work in construction company. Right now we came across big (1.2 mil sqft) hospital project, and together with architects looking for best BIM software that will be able to run this project. Right now we are testing Revit (mostly because of architect) but when project goes into 250 kilo sqft hardware starts to say NONO (experience from other projects). It's a big problem. Hardware is not the problem (state of the art for today standards). Any experiences in that area?

Miki,
The Eureka Towers Djordje mentioned is an excellent example of the process of how to approach a large and/or complex project as well as how to execute it. Thinking it through ahead of time, they broke the building down into somewhat stand-alone areas: skin, MEP, structural, residential units, Cores etc.
They also looked at team size. They felt teams of 2-4 people worked best. Each team had its own file. I believe they were hotlinked to a main file that had the entire building. The separate subfiles allowed for effective archicad file sizes. I think Repetitive areas such as apartment layouts, as with many projects, were done in modules.

As the overall building evolved it was an easy process to see how changes in one area might affect another.

Another key was their custom scripting of objects to make the model smarter. An example I remember was developing all plumbing fixtures to create holes in floor slabs. Floor penetration plans were automatically updated as plans evolved. The time spent manually checking umpton floors with human errors factored in was eliminated.

They also evaluated the team members recognizing that everyone has their strengths and weakness. Not everyone is going to be able to make customized GDL parts, and not everyone has years of experience to bring a project.

All in all a brilliant demonstration of the importance of planning the team that supported the design.

You might also contact graphisoft if you haven't already as they have done a lot work with the construction industry.