topic Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12? in Modeling

Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Anonymous — Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:53:29 GMT

Hello,

I work for a small residential firm and we were advised to upgrade to v11 for the added curved profile tools, but now that v12 is on the horizon, my boss is wondering whether we should wait for it to come out before upgrading our v10. We currently use AutoDesk2007 but I am ready to change now to ArchiCad. We have had ArchiCad v10 in a box on the shelf for almost a year now. It is mocking me silently as I continue to use AutoCad.

Should we:
1. Upgrade to v11 now and get started or,
2. Wait for v12

What improvements will v12 have over v11 and exactly when is it coming out? I thank you all for your help.

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Laura Yanoviak — Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:59:56 GMT

My advise is to use your AC10 now, get up-to-speed with AC, and then upgrade to AC12 in the spring.

gorilla_monsoon wrote:
What improvements will v12 have over v11 and exactly when is it coming out? I thank you all for your help.

No one really knows (or is allowed to say) -- but rumors are that it will finally address some long-standing issues and will be a worthwhile upgrade.

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Anonymous — Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:08:24 GMT

Laura,

Thank you for your quick reply.

I have a friend who works in a firm upstairs and he advised us to get v11 so that we can use the curved profile tool. Our houses usually have watertables/curved profiles, etc. and he claims that these are difficult to do well in v10. Our next project is for the president of a large international corporation and we do not want to use v10 for this project if there were going to be problems like this. It is a difficult situation to be in but I would rather get v11 now and begin this project with the curved profile tools rather than wait til the spring for a version that may or may not be worth waiting for. I was hoping that Graphisoft would be promoting v12 by listing the new improved features, but I have found no source for this kind of info, so I have no idea if it is worth waiting for. Thank you again for your help.

Jason

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Laura Yanoviak — Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:20:36 GMT

gorilla_monsoon wrote:
Our houses usually have watertables/curved profiles, etc. and he claims that these are difficult to do well in v10.

Only you can answer whether this feature is important enough to sway your decision. In AC10, you can do segmented "curved" profiles, but would that be an acceptable solution for you? Are you talking about a couple of curved elements, or a design that relies heavily on curves?

gorilla_monsoon wrote:
I was hoping that Graphisoft would be promoting v12 by listing the new improved features

This won't happen prior to AC12's release. AC11 has some nice improvements over AC10, but knowing what I know now, I probably would have waited until AC12 to upgrade.

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Anonymous — Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:30:09 GMT

Laura,

We have a few curved areas, but nothing radical. He just said that we would have problems dealing with watertables. He said that we would have to create multiple walls instead of being able to create a single complex wall with a watertable. Is this something that is fixed in v11? I had one semester of exposure to Archicad v8 in school but now I have to learn how to generate construction docs for a 12,000+sqft. house on the run. Our support locally has been expensive and dismal. We are going to have to pay my buddy upstairs to help us set everything up and provide tips.

I am just sick of drawing everything in 2D and am ready to change over to Archicad. I know it will be difficult and was hoping to make the switch on this upcoming job, but if there are to be significant improvements in v12, then I would be willing to wait. Thank you again.

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Laura Yanoviak — Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:36:21 GMT

gorilla_monsoon wrote:
He said that we would have to create multiple walls instead of being able to create a single complex wall with a watertable. Is this something that is fixed in v11?

It is true that you would have to create a segmented curve with multiple walls in AC10, but a single curved wall in AC11.

Another important thing to consider: are you more likely to have the time and/or money to invest in implementing new software at this time or in the spring?

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Anonymous — Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:47:25 GMT

Well, I think we have the $ to do it now, but I didnt want my boss to upgrade to 11 now so we could get started, but then have v12 come out with features that we couldnt turn down and be forced to upgrade twice in 4 months. I have been pushing my boss to convert to ArchiCad, and he bought a seat, but we haven't really found the perfect time to switch. I want to switch now and i think that any time "wasted" on getting up to speed will be recouped in time saved when implementing design changes in our drawings. I was naive to think that there would be an easy answer to our dilemma. I think we will probaly go ahead and upgrade to v11 and then we can decide in the future whether to go to 12. The experience I gain in the meantime will help to make that determination once 12 comes out. Thanks Laura for sharing your knowledge.

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Richard Morrison — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:19:17 GMT

V10 is a perfectly good release, and you should get started using it ASAP. However, there are a few things in V11 that I would not be willing to give up:
1) Ability to use a linked marker to any drawing in layout. This has made coordination of detail references SO much better.
2) Virtual trace is VERY handy, once you learn how to use it properly.
3) Pen sets in views is much better than pen sets in layouts only.

There's nothing earth-shattering in the upgrade, but the cumulative benefits are, to me, definitely worth the upgrade price. (I am a small residential firm, too, BTW.)

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Stephen Dolbee — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:50:53 GMT

If you already have v10, use it. V11 has some nice features, but nothing earth-shattering, imho.

Steve

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:58:14 GMT

Stick with AC 10, i must tell u archicad 11 is "not" better then ac 10 ! Its better for u to buy some addon which will be much powerfull then curved profiles in ac 11./less money/ C.P. in AC11 is not perfect, still missing some features and i can promise u that u can finish all your tasks in ac 10.
I know 4 architect which return to AC10 and thats never happned before !
If u need any help with modeling curved stuff just say i will gladly help u but dont buy AC 11!

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Thomas Holm — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:35:04 GMT

I was able to finish my tasks in Archicad 4.5 too. I upgraded because it got easier and faster and more productive. That is still what I do. 11 has got Virtual Trace - MUCH better than the old floor-plan-only-ghosts. Remember tracing paper? That's what it's all about. You can put anything under it, compare, trace etc. But better than you ever could manually. This is a feature that I've longed for, and asked for, since I started designing with computers. The only thing left, in my mind, that was better and easier to do on the drawing board!

It's got curved profiled walls & beams. Not available before. It recognizes better than before the need to sometimes work in 2D only. The place view on layout and publish process is more polished and easier than ever. Etc etc.

If you can do without it? Sure. I can. I can even do without my computer and draw by hand if necessary. I did that for 20 odd years. But I don't wanna.

Ac11 has currently (1086) one significant crashing bug that I know of. If you paste something in a section/elevation window, it crashes. But cutting and pasting in sections is something you should avoid anyway, unless you're happy to work in 2D only.

But my advice is to wait for the next hotfix (edit: check this http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=103608#103608 ), then upgrade. If you have the money, the productivity enhancement is reason enough to stay on the train. If you decide to get off, don't do it because you think the next release is better. Do it because you're completely happy with what you've got and don't need any enhancements. The upgrade process will be worse for each version you skip. There will always be new features that will require re-learning. And there will always be bugs!

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:40:09 GMT

Necko & Others,

Thank you for all your help. I still have not made up my mind about 11 or 12 yet but I am going to start learning 10 in the evenings after work until I can gain enough knowledge to know whether I would like 11 or 12. I will be back soon with many questions about how to do things in 10. I appreciate the help you all have offered.

Thank you,

Jason

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Rakela Raul — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:40:35 GMT

it got easier and faster

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Thomas Holm — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:49:51 GMT

Rakela wrote:
it got easier and faster

Rakela, I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm serious. Of course certain parts of the program are more complex and perhaps slower than some previous version. But my computer still, as always, spends most of its time waiting for me and my decisions, and I get my work more complete and faster out of the door in AC11 than in any previous version! ANd I think that's been the case with almost every upgrade (I jumped 8 🙂 ) YMMV.

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Rakela Raul — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:55:55 GMT

i believe you

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Steve Jepson — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:34:25 GMT

v11 1086 still causes me some problems. I think the upgrade was worth it, but just barely.

This probably exactly what they were after. Sub standard version releases are intentional and will be normal now that we are on annual subscriptions. They are made that way so you will be forced to buy the next upgrade, to fix the last one.

I have nothing good to say about annual subscriptions.

I am not sure there is any point in waiting for 12 to upgrade since they will charge you more for an upgrade from 10 to 12 than from 11 to 12.

If you were to upgrade to 11 now and start your subscription today, your subscription is for 12 months. That would get you the upgrade to 12 for free right?? I don't know.

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Richard Morrison — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:49:52 GMT

Steve wrote:
v11 1086 still causes me some problems. I think the upgrade was worth it, but just barely.

This probably exaclty what they were after.Sub standard version releases are intentional and will be normal now that we are on annual subscritions. .

Did I miss something? I think subscriptions are still optional. You save a little by doing it this way, but I don't think they are mandatory (unlike Revit).

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Steve Jepson — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 05:21:22 GMT

Of course it's optional.

You are always free to pay the penalty for not subscribing.

Does it cost them more to sell the upgrade without the things they include with the subscription? No. It costs them less, but they will charge us more! That arrangement does not constitute a discount for subscribing; it is a penalty for upgrading.

Where is the logic in an annual subscription for an annual upgrade?

Where is the value in an annual subscription that runs out 9 months before the next annual upgrade?

Calling it a "subscription" is just a way to get us to pay for the upgrade before we can see it. Before we know what it is. Before we know how it works. Before we have the chance to say, no thanks, I don't think it is working very well yet, I prefer to wait until more of the bugs are worked out of it.

The extra "benefits" of subscription should be offered separately since their value to the user is entirely subjective.

I am always going to pay for the upgrades anyway because I want to stay current.

Because of this, I view their marketing strategy to penalize me if I do not subscribe as unnecessary and unethical strong arm marketing.

It's like "why should we be fair with you when we don't need to"?

"Why should we let you see what you are buying? If we do, you might not buy it."

"Sure you can look at it before you buy, but it will cost you more".

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Thomas Holm — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 06:35:28 GMT

Steve wrote:
Of course it's optional.
You are always free to pay the penalty for not subscribing.

Well.
"Of course" is a strong statement. Check the competition!

- Autodesk, with its vast resources and cash flow, doesn't give you a choice. If you don't subscribe, you're off the list after a couple of years. You lose the right to upgrade. You'll have to pay the full price for a new license, despite that you already have the program!

- Bentley's (Microstation) subscription terms are similar or worse.

(Maybe this discussion really belongs in the Archicad vs. Revit thread)

But I say of course it should be more expensive to upgrade without a subscription. With it you guarantee the developer's cash flow and resources. That is worth a lot to him. Without it, you keep your money, but Graphisoft at least doesn't throw you out in the cold. You retain the right to upgrade. It's reasonable that it costs you more the more upgrades you skipped!

I really don't see what you're aiming at. If you want a professional program with professional support, you of course will have to pay for it. There is no such thing as a free lunch! But GS's terms are prefectly reasonable, not like Autodesk's monopolistic arrogance.

Re: Should I upgrade to v11 now, or wait for v12?

Anonymous — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:21:44 GMT

I agree with Steve. I've upgraded every time since v4.55 and don't intend not to. But I don't want the mysterious 'benefits' of having a middle man that is pretending to offer support and training. I haven't had training from the start and think i could probably train some of the 'trainers' offering (purely because of years of using AC in a real environment and dealing with real output needs, whilst some of them are quite new to the product and don't work with it but merely train with it).

Why, this time, do I need a subscription when I've never needed one before? All I want is the upgrade - not all the other rubbish. Now it's so much more difficult to get bugs dealt with - the middle man has to do his bit of intervening and sending bugs to GS when I used to just do it myself.

I don't see benefit - only red-tape and expense.