topic Re: Revit 6 in Modeling

Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

Anonymous — Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:37:56 GMT

Hello
I use both VWA and Archicad ,I guess from a production and construction
point of view VWA is much more efficient and streamlined for Design ,Data and analysis not so much for BIM.Its 2d is well intergrated with 3D.Both processes are separated for a reason.You see when I need to only sketch in 2d I may not wish to start on a complete model???The world of BIM is not as rosey as you may think?Take it from me we have to build projects from properly constructed working Drawing not Models (BIM)

Re: Revit 6

Rob — Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:18:34 GMT

Dear BDC,

point of view VWA is much more efficient and streamlined for Design ,Data and analysis not so much for BIM

I am quite surprised your attitude towards BIM in the design stage. At our office all design architects have to use ArchiCAD to define and recognise all potential flaws of their design in 3D at the very beginning!

Both processes are separated for a reason.

I would be pretty much worried about how much time you are spending on checking of your drawings consistency (plan/section/elevation).

You see when I need to only sketch in 2d I may not wish to start on a complete model???

Honestly mate, I have been with CADs for almost 14 years but 2D sketching in CAD does not seem to me like 'efficient' approach how to present your first ideas. I am using a clutch pencil and this is not for nostalgic reasons...

Re: Revit 6

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:22:08 GMT

Hello
I use both 2D and 3D at the design stage to analyse design and data,
Thats the problem how do you get data from a clutch pencil.
Do you have to complete the model before you realise your mistakes?As a builder I have to retify the problem on site cause by poor documentation thru BIM.Seriously,The process should be flexible and intuiative and flows back and forth from 2D and 3D including data.Thats a concept that alot of Architects havent got a handle on,sorry to say.My opion has change on BIM.( User since AC5)You should try building for a living you wouldnt survive on BIM alone .

Re: Revit 6

Rob — Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:09:11 GMT

I use both 2D and 3D at the design stage to analyse design and data

You see when I need to only sketch in 2d I may not wish to start on a complete model???

Now, you've got me completely confused.

What do you mean by 'completing" the model to realise your mistakes? I think your mistakes should be sorted by the model completion, shouldn't they?
Secondly I do not understand how does the BIM platform collide with poor documentation? You can produce poor documentation on any platform with any CAD, it is simply lack of skills and/or negligence or whatever, but I would not say it is a 'feature' of any BIM application. Is this your point or did I misunderstand?

Re: Revit 6

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:11:01 GMT

BDC wrote:
As a builder I have to retify the problem on site cause by poor documentation thru BIM... You should try building for a living you wouldnt survive on BIM alone .

Huh?

Competent people make buildable drawings...the Virtual Building (tm) only expedites this process in competent hands. In untrained hands, one has what one gets. It is the user, not the paradigm that produces buildable drawings... but perhaps you are talking about something else, and could be more explicit about what you feel is the failing of the BIM process? Are you saying that you are LESS efficient by modeling a project (properly) in ArchiCAD? Or you are somehow less accurate or the drawings are less buildable? Confused about your point, since thousands of us produce clear, buildable drawings all the time, including other builders on this list...

Your comments are most welcome for discussion here (although I'm not sure why or how this is in the Revit 6 thread since you didn't mention Revit). I'm not jumping on your comments because we seem to disagree ... but because I can't tell what it is you're trying to say.

Karl

Re: Revit 6

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Mar 2004 02:14:40 GMT

Now, you've got me completely confused.

Let me try to enlighten you,Im sorry your so far away otherwise I would show you, what virtual construction and data should be like.I beleive Architects and Builders QS & Consultants should share Data & drawings
this is not possible thru Archcad currently?

What do you mean by 'completing" the model to realise your mistakes?

Someimes we dont want to expend resources on a model when a 2D sketch or data would surfice,What is it that you dont understand about this?.

I think your mistakes should be sorted by the model completion, shouldn't they?

The 3D model is important But no more important than other areas
You should be able to iron out mistakes at any Stage 2D 3D or Data
within the same program.

Secondly I do not understand how does the BIM platform collide??? with poor documentation? You can produce poor documentation on any platform with any CAD,

BIM makes you do, what it wants to do,it should be the other way around.Yes, poor documentation can be produced in any program
Ive seem many drawings/data where information has been automated incorrectly and the program wasnt flexible enough to allow the designer to rectify it?
The problem with BIM is one of Diminishing returns in regards to programing/flexibility/design/data.

Re: Revit 6

Rob — Fri, 05 Mar 2004 02:41:33 GMT

I just can not see your point in this discussion. Firstly, we are in REVIT 6 topic (as Karl has mentioned above).
Secondly, you do not seem to be an Archicad user, and if so, with all respect, what have you been doing all that time? It is a bit expensive toy to have...
We are an office with 35 people, working on really big projects and let me say we ARE producing quality documentation and faster by roughly 25% than in the past with 2D or semi3D solutions such as DataCad or Autocad, which we had been using.
We have been talking to people after transition to Archicad and they did not simply want to go back to the 2D platform. We are using autocad just for old projects (originally started in autocad) to finish them off but that's all...

BIM makes you do what it wants you to do,it should be the other way around

Mate, you are soooo wrong here...

It seems to me that you do not understand the BIM idea AT ALL.

Re: Revit 6

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Mar 2004 03:07:11 GMT

Rob wrote:
We have been talking to people after transition to Archicad and they did not simply want to go back to the 2D platform. Mate, you are soooo wrong here...

It seems to me that you do not understand the BIM idea AT ALL.

I think you have missed the point.Its not a question of going back to 2D.But one of data intergration( 2D and 3D),you should stick to your cliutch pencil and then send that sketch to the builder and engineer for comments ,get the gist

Re: Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

Djordje — Fri, 05 Mar 2004 06:30:17 GMT

Whoa!

First, it is obvious that some bad experience has taken place somewhere?

Second, whatever the software, do remind yourself time and again that the software does nothing. People do. So, the best (always arguable) software in professionally unskilled and software untrained hands, will produce a mess.

Thirdly, IMHO the Virtual Building is the only system of software implementation that allows for good construction documents IF the person(s) using it do the thing properly.

The discussion positions here are not so opposed as it may look; I am of the belief that Virtual Building modeling at current software/hardware ratio is warraneted down to 1:50 or 1:25 scale; all that you normally would show on the drawings beyond that (1:20 or larger scale) should not be physically modeled, and belongs in the Detail tool realm (Patch, composites) - shortly, 2D.

I agree that in the building process it is often easier to sketch the thing on the site - heck, did it myself yesterday - or fax off a hand sketch or a quick 2D detail, but make SURE that at a near future you do include it in the file, as there is such a thing as As Built set, right?

Some clarification of the positions would not hurt ...

Re: Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

stefan — Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:18:58 GMT

Strange things happening. Posts that receive new names, cookies that got eaten.

---

FWIW, I did work with VectorWorks for 2,5 years and it is a powerfull drafting application and a usable (but limited) 3D-modeller, but it doesn't do what ArchiCAD can do with the Virtual Building.

The coordination provided with the BIM approach beats any other approach hands down. Unless all you want to do is visualisation & presentations & gaming

I do not understand what this thread is about...

Re: Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

Anonymous — Sun, 07 Mar 2004 00:08:05 GMT

stefan wrote:
Strange things happening. Posts that receive new names, cookies that got eaten.

---
The coordination provided with the BIM approach beats any other approach hands down. Unless all you want to do is visualisation & presentations & gaming

I do not understand what this thread is about...

With due respect ,I guess you dont physically build projects(you might virtually constrct them in Models, there is a difference)?
As this post suggests Its the flexibility of 2D,3D and data at different Stages( What is it you guys dont understand about this?),My clients and others Know this because, I control the processes ,not the program, nor the client.I get paid when the project is finished on time and on Budget
I use C4D, heres another problem,The lack of flexibility and control over Visual Objects.On huge projets >200M youd wish you had more flexibility iin AC , but thats the Irony,different forms of presentation are becoming equally important.Just ask all the new clients I pick up

Re: Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

__archiben — Sun, 07 Mar 2004 22:27:13 GMT

BDC wrote:
With due respect ,I guess you dont physically build projects(you might virtually constrct them in Models, there is a difference)?
As this post suggests Its the flexibility of 2D,3D and data at different Stages( What is it you guys dont understand about this?)

i'm not sure why you are posting here bdc. your original post was simply antagonising without having anything to say, and i think that you will find agreement on the timely use of 3D/2D data from most of the users here anyway.

building 'virtually' as you are designing not only enables you to produce a co-ordinated set of production documents quickly at the construction stage, but it also (at the correct time of the project) forces you to resolve issues before they become issues.

of course this process has to be managed in order that you are not modelling to resolve difficult details at a design stage, etc.. also, as others have mentioned, the user is the key to building information model success. there will also always be a place for the quick, back-of-the-cigarette-packet sketch too, but again, that's also a judgement call by a skilled professional isn't it?

for your information, it's no coincidence that kajima have been using archiCAD to build virtually before they begin the physical 'model'

ArchiCAD wrote:
Case Studies
Kajima opened with a an explanation of how they operate. For them it is cost saving to model the entire building process in 3D even if the architects have worked solely in 2D, because the resulting capability of prediction of construction timetabling, plant management and clash prevention saves far more than it costs. The modelling goes right down to foundations and drainage levels of detail. (Graham Starkey and Chris Richards)

Alan writes: "This was a important case study and really put across the use of ArchiCAD in the higher echelons of the construction industry, Kajima being 3rd largest construction company in the world. Chris was very nervous, his presentation content was a great example, for all listeners, of the application and co-ordination of ArchiCAD. Kajima UK undertook a £75 million design-and-build project and their presentation outlined the details of their set-up and delivery of documentation from all aspects of the project, designs, historical data, design problems.
I personally was very impressed by the thorough nature of Kajima (UK), and their dedication to ArchiCAD use & collaboration. Their ability to demand 3D modelling data from involved parties is a good impression to take from this presentation. All ACUE attendees now understand that projects, of any magnitude, when taken seriously & co-ordinated properly, can be delivered accurately and also the 3D design process can save a substantial amount rather than a current perception that 3D modelling takes requires more investment. I took, from the Kajima speakers, the motto "Getting it right in 3D automatically guarantees integrity and saves money."

Mike Hohmann writes: "Stupendous presentation from Kajima of the pitfalls of not designing in 3D, this ought to be made available to all architectural schools, availabile on a web site (or PDF), and is deserving of more publicity."

Karl Eckermann writes: "Interesting presentation illustrating the need for 3D analysis of all aspects of building delivery - in particular it highlighted the logistical nightmare that occurs when several consultants and designer groups are each producing individual documentation on different software packages. Emphasised the importance of the Virtual Building in avoiding on-site delays due to such conflicting documentation and design. "

. . . and as far as i'm aware they "physically build projects" . . . and some.

don't they?

Re: Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

stefan — Mon, 08 Mar 2004 08:44:56 GMT

BDC wrote:
stefan wrote:
Strange things happening. Posts that receive new names, cookies that got eaten.

---
The coordination provided with the BIM approach beats any other approach hands down. Unless all you want to do is visualisation & presentations & gaming

I do not understand what this thread is about...
With due respect ,I guess you dont physically build projects(you might virtually constrct them in Models, there is a difference)?
As this post suggests Its the flexibility of 2D,3D and data at different Stages( What is it you guys dont understand about this?),My clients and others Know this because, I control the processes ,not the program, nor the client.I get paid when the project is finished on time and on Budget
I use C4D, heres another problem,The lack of flexibility and control over Visual Objects.On huge projets >200M youd wish you had more flexibility iin AC , but thats the Irony,different forms of presentation are becoming equally important.Just ask all the new clients I pick up

Of course I don't physically build projects. That's the work of the undertaker/contractor (hope I use the correct English word). And he/she does it based on printed (2D) drawings made in whatever you want (CAD, Illustrator, drawing board, napkin sketches). The process and coordination is the responsability of the designer, usually an architect in our profession, but it can be an engineer or similar.
Using Cinema4D is fine for presentations and it might display certain details or materials in another way then a technical drawing or an ArchiCAD rendering can, but you don't build with a C4D-model, you enhance the drawing set with it or you use it for additional tasks that ArchiCAD or VectorWorks or anything else doesn't perform well.
Different forms of (re)presentation are very important, but the coordination between these different views (2D, 3D, animation, drawing, sketch, lists, spreadsheet) is difficult and I'm happy that "BIM" can help (partly) producing it. I stress "help", since the designer has to do the hard work in the end. The tool can not automate the coordination, but up to a point it can really help synchronise things (e.g. making sure that the position of a window in plan, elevation and perspective drawing is the same). In that case BIM is a definite improvement over 2D & 3D-CAD (for lack of better words).
We do draw 2D in ArchiCAD. Some details are not built in the 3D-model. Some layouts are using the 3D-tools to just produce a quick 2D-sketch. "Sometimes" the 3D-model is not 100% accurate (can it ever be?) but it does it's job: the undertaker sees what has to be built (the design) and the architect still needs to meet with all involved parties on site to discuss "implementation details". Sometimes additional drawings, not necessarily 3D, have to be made. That's fine. It get's the job done.

P.S. Don't take it the wrong way, but please try to be as precise as you can in describing the issue. It seems you don't understand us and we don't understand you. The internet and typed text have certain limitations.

P.S.2 And please watch out for punctuation and spelling. It can clutter the message more then you might think. I do my best, but I'm no native English speaker.

Re: Revit 6

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Mar 2004 18:13:20 GMT

BDC wrote:
Hello
I use both 2D and 3D at the design stage to analyse design and data,
Thats the problem how do you get data from a clutch pencil.
Do you have to complete the model before you realise your mistakes?As a builder I have to retify the problem on site cause by poor documentation thru BIM.Seriously,The process should be flexible and intuiative and flows back and forth from 2D and 3D including data.Thats a concept that alot of Architects havent got a handle on,sorry to say.My opion has change on BIM.( User since AC5)You should try building for a living you wouldnt survive on BIM alone .

Mr. (or Ms?) BDC,

I find it difficult but necessary to respond to your posts.

With all due respect, I don't think you have a very clear understanding or appreciation of the Virtual Building (BIM) method. In the preliminary and schematic phases it is much faster to sketch on paper and model in the computer than any other method that I have experienced. The computer model then becomes the fastest way to produce the structured (coordinated) plans, elevations, etc.

Before you accuse me of not knowing how to build a real building, you should know that I was a master carpenter and general contractor long before I got into Architecture, with experience ranging from historical restoration to high rise construction.

On the other hand, perhaps you just don't have a clear understanding of online etiquette. You state your opinions with great certainty, but I, for one, see little in your posts to support your positions. You should be aware that your approach is antagonistic without the redeeming instructional (and entertainment) value of Adalbert.

I have never seen such a scrambled and chaotic topic in this forum. Normally clear and coherent members seem to be struggling to make sense of what to say (but, like myself, feel compelled to try anyway). It seems like a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Enough said (perhaps too much). This is all I am going to add to this thread.

Re: Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

Anonymous — Tue, 09 Mar 2004 02:23:51 GMT

Hey matthew
I guess you fail to understand the importance of 2D,3D and data analysis (at different stages)? GS obviously agrees, they in fact re-posted the thread,I was happy to assist and take it off line?Another fact ,also, is I have initiated responses albeit varied.IT Is more than you have added to this discussion.you should have a better understanding of all the processes as a builder/ risk taker?
You say you were a BUILDER?Didnt you analyse projects before you allocate resources, or do builders just build and hope for the best?
This is too important an issue for builders and architects? ITs not that I disagree with 3D Modeling and 3D data ,But I keep
saying thats only part of a needed flexible equation, BIM forces me to Model when I may not want to?You as a builder should surely understand this? I dont think Im missing the point, others not on this board may agree with me?
There are many many other issues,Havent even scratched the surface yet.

Re: Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

Dave Jochum — Tue, 09 Mar 2004 05:28:47 GMT

BDC wrote:
Hey matthew
I guess you fail to understand the importance of 2D,3D and data analysis (at different stages)? GS obviously agrees, they in fact re-posted the thread,I was happy to assist and take it off line?Another fact ,also, is I have initiated responses albeit varied.IT Is more than you have added to this discussion.you should have a better understanding of all the processes as a builder/ risk taker?
You say you were a BUILDER?Didnt you analyse projects before you allocate resources, or do builders just build and hope for the best?
This is too important an issue for builders and architects? ITs not that I disagree with 3D Modeling and 3D data ,But I keep
saying thats only part of a needed flexible equation, BIM forces me to Model when I may not want to?You as a builder should surely understand this? I dont think Im missing the point, others not on this board may agree with me?
There are many many other issues,Havent even scratched the surface yet.

My strong inclination is to ignore this thread and retire for the night--but I can't resist the urge to comment.

BDC--The members of this forum are not a bunch ArchiCad/Graphisoft sycophants. Nor is this site a place to rant mindless, senseless drivel. We are a group of professionals--architects, engineers, designers, (and yes) builders, and more--who use AC and look for help in becoming more efficient in its use, and also to seek to shape AC into becoming a more powerful tool with which we make our living.

Many very smart, experienced people donate their time here to graciously help other users. The key to making the most of your experience on this forum (or any professional forum for that matter) and receiving helpful information, is to be precise in your communication. If all you want to do is bash from a soapbox, you won't be well received here.

I have no idea what your misgivings are with respect to the virtual building method. I can't imagine you have much experience with AC or have had professional training in its use. I personally avoided all CAD until just a few years ago, because I didn't think the software was powerful enough to make me more efficient than drawing by hand. Over the last couple of years using AC, I have indeed become more efficient than I ever was with the analog method--and I still have a lot to learn. I ask a lot more questions on this forum than I post answers.

I occasionally get frustrated trying to figure out how to accomplish some task. But rather than log on here and pound out some anti-BIM rhetoric on my keyboard, I ask a question. I usually get a helpful answer. Sometimes not. That's why we have a rather lengthy wish list.

If you actually want to understand how thousands of us can perform so efficiently with this software (and I would think you would, since you have spent some time here), and you can compose a coherent series of thoughts and questions, I'm sure you will be engaged in discussion. Maybe we will all learn from the discourse.

Re: Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

gpowless — Tue, 09 Mar 2004 13:25:42 GMT

I can empathize with the problems a builder can experience when dealing with "book" trained architects, engineers and designers.

I have been a builder, Federal and Municipal Certified Building Inspector and my primary trade is a carpenter / cabinet maker. I presently design homes for upscale builders and am a certified HVAC designer and Architectural Technologist (not tooting just providing a basis for my perspective....).

I recall a client who came to me after having his building designed by a local engineering firm and ask me to carry the project to building permit for them. The original estimate for the building of $180,000 came in at just under $350,000. There were a number of problems with an overdesigned foundation for a clearspan industrial building. After looking for a more practical solution and consulting with my engineer we were able to apply a simple strategy that was quickly implemented using simple ICFs and reinforced piers footings.

Many professionals who design and prepare workings drawings force their design solutions in impractical ways that not only frustrate builders and trades but drive up the costs of building. While some problems do need creative solutions many have very simple ones if the builders and trades were consulted. However, this requires extensive rapport and consultation with the builders - which is an aspect of the construction industry that seems to be falling off the more we advance into communication technologies. I have aways believe that before you can design and draw plans for buildings, one must have an extensive background in the building methods.

That being said, since I purchased Archicad 6.0 and upgraded, I have not only improved my output but have incorporated better input from the builders to improve the overall plan and detailing. I realize that no one designer can customize their methods to match every builder, but having a firm understanding of the current trends in materials and methods has put my company ahead of the competition and in demand by an increasing number of custom builders and other design professionals, architects and engineers. The ability to visualize the final result and to work out potential problems before they become a scheduling and cost issue not only improves the construction flow but it enhances the reputation of the builder for achieving his targets.

In Canada we embraced a concept known as the "House as a System" where we recognize the interaction between elements and systems and the importance of sequencing and coordination between all the partners. For the most part it has been a dismal failure because the basis for the system, the cooperation between designer and builder has been greatly lacking (and the rest follow their lead). However, as a designer using state of the art technology cadware and using grass roots involvement of the clients and their builders at the design stage, we are able to see that such a concept is viable and desirable and the the end result are quality buildings.

Don't be so hard in defending our profession. BDC is simply expressing a point of view. It isn't a bitter pill - it is just a little bigger than we are used to swallowing.

Re: Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

Djordje — Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:49:49 GMT

gpowless wrote:
I can empathize with the problems a builder can experience when dealing with "book" trained architects, engineers and designers.

So can I. And I am an architect. Luckily, since day one when I was allowed to practice the trade, my job included the site - and IMHO, nobody can call her/himself an architect if at least one pair of shoes is not lost to cement dust and at least one pair of jeans is ripped on a sharp protrusion.

That said, the thread IMHO started on the wrong foot for the right reasons. But, the premise is wrong.

No software can better the design decisions, that is for the people. The 3D based software, the Virtual Building implemented PROPERLY, helps in getting to the economically and professionaly right decision. There is always another way - so there is not a RIGHT way.

The software itself will not solve all the problems that your professional knowledge has to, but it will provide you with INFORMATION needed to get the right decision. Proved this to myself today - and a shed is 3m lower, the structure is 20% lighter, and the client is happier by a five digit figure.

Re: Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:37:17 GMT

Djordje wrote:
... and the client is happier by a five digit figure.

What currency?

Karl

Re: Design data, 2D, 3D, and BIM

Djordje — Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:37:28 GMT

Karl wrote:
Djordje wrote:
... and the client is happier by a five digit figure.
What currency?

In yours it would still be five ... 😉