topic Re: Reference lines and cores in Modeling

Reference lines and cores

Tom Krowka — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:17:18 GMT

Any way to make the core of a composite wall the reference line? I can only get the ref line on the outside edges or the center. I need a reference line on the wall to be a bit off center.

Re: Reference lines and cores

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:35:06 GMT

You mean like this?

Re: Reference lines and cores

__archiben — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:56:52 GMT

and this. for when you've already placed them and need to tweak . . .

~/archiben

Re: Reference lines and cores

Anonymous — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:29:47 GMT

Tom wrote:
Any way to make the core of a composite wall the reference line? I can only get the ref line on the outside edges or the center. I need a reference line on the wall to be a bit off center.

Not aside from the numerical offsets Ben and Stuart mentioned. This is a long standing wish of mine for composites. To be able to specify one of the separators as the reference line so that the walls would stay put if the composite is changed. There are some complexities to this (of course). Perhaps the simplest would just be an option to reference to the core instead of the finish. (I bet most people would make it their default.)

Re: Reference lines and cores

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:25:45 GMT

I agree with the wishlist item that Matthew mentions.

A tip and warning about offsets, since I've seen many project files that were royally screwed up because the user did not pay attention to the offset value when adding new walls...

Tip: to quickly change the ref line location to a revised core location, use Find&Select to find all walls of the given composite type, and then use the adjust offset dialog that Ben showed.

Warning: always check the offset value in your Info Box if you use offset reference lines to make sure you're not accidentally offseting something incorrectly. Or, use Favorites as you work make sure the offset is reset to the proper value for the given wall type...

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Reference lines and cores

Tom Krowka — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:53:14 GMT

Thanks. I consider myself now educated re: reference lines

Re: Reference lines and cores

Anonymous — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:26:27 GMT

Matthew wrote:
....
Not aside from the numerical offsets Ben and Stuart mentioned. This is a long standing wish of mine for composites. To be able to specify one of the separators as the reference line so that the walls would stay put if the composite is changed. There are some complexities to this (of course). Perhaps the simplest would just be an option to reference to the core instead of the finish. (I bet most people would make it their default.)

I'm brand new to AC - just got v11 the other day but I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out how I want to set up walls and this question made me wonder if using complex profiles will do what you are looking for. I haven't tried it yet, but according to the manual the origen in the profile becomes the reference line for walls (most likely the core).

Based on that, I would assume that you could change the wall to another profile that also had the origen at the core and so kept it in the proper plan in plan.

Re: Reference lines and cores

Link — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:56:28 GMT

Chris wrote:
Based on that, I would assume that you could change the wall to another profile that also had the origen at the core and so kept it in the proper plan in plan.

Keep it in the same place in plan? Yes, that is right.

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Reference lines and cores

Anonymous — Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:35:40 GMT

Chris wrote:
I'm brand new to AC - just got v11 the other day but I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out how I want to set up walls and this question made me wonder if using complex profiles will do what you are looking for.

Yes complex profiles will do this, but I don't want to change entirely from a simple, stable and proven tool to a new and more complex one (nor will I recommend this to my clients). So this does provide a workaround, but it complicates the practice, and profiles do not behave like composites in other ways which can create problems.

The more I think about it the more it seems that a simple checkbox to "Reference to Core" would cover 99% of the necessary function in a very simple fashion.

Re: Reference lines and cores

Karl Ottenstein — Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:06:00 GMT

Matthew wrote:
Chris wrote:
I'm brand new to AC - just got v11 the other day but I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out how I want to set up walls and this question made me wonder if using complex profiles will do what you are looking for.
Yes complex profiles will do this, but I don't want to change entirely from a simple, stable and proven tool to a new and more complex one (nor will I recommend this to my clients). So this does provide a workaround, but it complicates the practice, and profiles do not behave like composites in other ways which can create problems.

Congrats to Chris on this observation. Remarkable for a complete newbie to observe the subtlety of origin-locking in a profile vs composite. Look forward to his participation here!

IMHO, the current state of affairs is a little unfortunate, but is understandable just from watching the product evolution. At one level, profiles seem to do what composites do, with the advantage that Chris mentions: no fuss reference line location and adjustment.

But, for purely vertical, rectilinear skinned walls, composites still have an editing advantage in that the width of each skin is easily read in the Composite dialog - so that, for example, 5/8" APA Sheathing can be trivially changed to 3/4" APA Sheathing in the middle of a composite.

With Profiles, the a marquee has to be used to cut through the fill for that sheating and stretch everything in the appropriate direction...among other possible fill-editing techniques. A bit painful, and no easy auditing of accuracy.

Graphisoft provides a compromise workaround with the "Capture Element's Profile..." button in Profile Manager. Using it, you can edit using the Composite dialog, draw a short wall, capture it's profile (including all skin priorities) and select all/drag to position it appropriately on the origin, and then save/apply as needed.

The separator linetypes and pens/weights are more easily and visually edited in the Composite dialog IMHO, too, including the option to omit skin end lines. Also, the fill orientation is easily seen with composites for L-type intersections in the radio button status. With profile, you have to select the fill, then Fill Selection Settings in the pop-up menu, and finally choose "Link to Project Origin", or "Link to Fill Origin"... On the other hand, fills are shown as bitmaps in the Composite dialog (historical reasons), but as vectorial in the Profile editor...and Profile Editor gives more control over fill placement/orientation.

One last thing worth noting is the role of an air space in each. With composites, an air space, such as in the illustrated brick wall in the default US 11 template, is actually a fill - and shows as such in the captured profile. In 3D hidden line mode, the entire mass of this wall shows up as a monolithic thickness, with no linework for the skins. But, in the Profile editor you can simply delete (or omit) the airspace fill, and then a true, physical airspace is modeled which will show up appropriately in 3D. One day we'll see the other skins/components in hidden line mode, I hope...

In any case, we're not there yet as far as a clean interface that lets us accomplish what we need, including referencing (e.g., mercedes, etc) the core as noted in Matthew's recently revived wish. At some point, GS will no doubt integrate the best of both into a single, improved profile interface, one would hope and the composite dialog will be deprecated.

Baby steps...

Karl

Re: Reference lines and cores

Anonymous — Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:37:39 GMT

BN_Karl wrote:
In any case, we're not there yet as far as a clean interface that lets us accomplish what we need, including referencing (e.g., mercedes, etc) the core as noted in Matthew's recently revived wish. At some point, GS will no doubt integrate the best of both into a single, improved profile interface, one would hope and the composite dialog will be deprecated.

Baby steps...

Karl

Yes. Now that we have four different ways to draw a wall (simple, polygonal, composite and profiled) with different variations (canted, battered, etc for simple & composite - stretch within limits for profiles) it seems vital that they eventually be combined into one comprehensive wall tool. Assuming of course that this is done correctly with a natural and transparent hierarchy from simple to complex.

...and yes, good catch for a new user Chris!

BTW; Karl, what's up with the new moniker? BN_?

Re: Reference lines and cores

Anonymous — Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:34:20 GMT

thanks for the complements - they are a nice welcome to the forum!

I've been trying to absorb the manual over the last week but thanks, Karl, for the great description of complex profiles - that's just the sort of real world pros/cons that the manual doesn't provide.

Re: Reference lines and cores

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:43:15 GMT

Glad that helped, Chris.

Matthew wrote:
BTW; Karl, what's up with the new moniker? BN_?

Well, I got auto-banned this weekend for a post that contained no 'bad' content as far as I could tell...so the BN (banned user) prefix got tempoarily placed in front of my name and I was locked out of the forums until an admin/moderator un-banned me.

Karl

Re: Reference lines and cores

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 21:46:22 GMT

Karl wrote:
.... At some point, GS will no doubt integrate the best of both into a single, improved profile interface, one would hope and the composite dialog will be deprecated.

Baby steps...

Karl

deprecated... sounds painful. Easy on the BIG words. I can not only spell Engineer, I are one.

Re: Reference lines and cores

Dennis Lee — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 23:07:46 GMT

okay, a new vocab for me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprecation

Re: Reference lines and cores

Anonymous — Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:29:36 GMT

Yes, Karl and others here always remind me that I am really only 1/2 of a Geek.