topic Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate in Modeling

Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Anonymous — Wed, 17 May 2006 07:05:29 GMT

I joined a development corporation that until I arrived had no architecture department. I showed my skills and background and thanks to my knowledge of ArchiCad and the Chairman's intense pleasure in seeing things so quickly in 3D, got the job. 2 months later they bring on another architect, one who has done a few projects for this company in the past. He does not computer draft well, but the little he can do is in AutoCad. He's been framing a debate of one vs. the other since he arrived and while I openly offer to translate all the files I work on into his archaic and simplistic program, its like I'm talking to a brick wall. The debate is about to hit a major head and despite my ability to create much faster drawings and without additional time or expense place everything into 3D and have presentation images ready at the drop of a hat, he's playing the "industry standard" card. I point out that the DWG file format is the standard, not the program, but the company execs don't know the difference. I need more fodder for my argument. At this point I'm ready to walk away and pursue another route as this issue highlights more than just a drafting issue. And with a project as large as we are taking on, I can't imagine starting off on the wrong foot and always being 5 steps behind. Somehow the logical argument isn't having the effect I'd prefer. Any suggestions?

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

stefan — Wed, 17 May 2006 07:13:29 GMT

Switching a whole office on a "huge+" project might be a big step. The whole workflow has to adapt.

If you go into a mixed environment, with partly ArchiCAD modeling and partly AutoCAD 2D drafting, it will be a pain.

It depends on the office, though. Some offices evolve from AutoCAD 2D to Architectural Desktop (ADT), realise it's complex and downgrade to plain AutoCAD again.

Others rethink their workflow, evolve to advanced programs such as Revit, ArchiCAD (and yes, even ADT) and never look back.

You can be productive using ArchiCAD alone, but I suggest proper training and internal consultancy to set up a performant office template, to get to the promised productivity level. This upfront costs are well worth it, once you start getting productive.

Maybe contact other ArchiCAD offices in your area and try to have some reference work shown.

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Petros Ioannou — Wed, 17 May 2006 09:09:35 GMT

Well instead of joining the AutoCAD - ArchiCAD debate , try to change it to an "BIM vs 2D CAD" debate and instead of presenting ArchiCADs advantages, show what are the trends inside Autodesk.
If you need, bring Revit on the table , not as a possible application to use , but just to let them know that even Autodesk (the developers of AutoCAD) are moving towards BIM.

Just a suggestion.

Petros

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Petros Ioannou — Wed, 17 May 2006 09:15:20 GMT

And another thing to consider.
There is a category of AutoCAD users who are over 50 and started learning AutoCAD at their mid 40's, having no experience with PCs.
The difficulty with them has nothing to do with which application is better but with the fact that it took a great effort to learn it back then and now they feel that they don't need to learn something from the begining.

Petros

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Anonymous — Wed, 17 May 2006 09:30:00 GMT

Yesterday I met my client. I bring my notebook and dongle for AC, and one very simple plan.
I show him 3D figure, what I want to show.
And I move with the client on the monitor of my notebook.
In this moment my client will see just 3D presentation on my notebook and no more 2D paper drw.
He coul understand very well, he is impressed very well, he gives OK sign right on the table.
And he said, this is my first nice experianc with a architect to understand visual.

Can you do this job with Auto CAD?

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Rakela Raul — Wed, 17 May 2006 12:02:38 GMT

i am after a project in a city where they want to implement the bim thing,
with all city projects.....and killing 2d as much as they can.........i can see cities going that route in the future as well....
and of course besides dropping my pants im saying that we have 'expertise' in the bim department !!!

and we got shortlisted a minute ago, probably cuz of the bim thing....
(more ac selling for free) btw !!!!!!

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Anonymous — Wed, 17 May 2006 14:48:31 GMT

Could someone clarify for me some of the terms being used in your responses? I'm not that familiar with the abbreviations. I appreciate the responses and first hand experiences. Please, keep them coming!

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

TomWaltz — Wed, 17 May 2006 15:00:52 GMT

Jarvis wrote:
Could someone clarify for me some of the terms being used in your responses? I'm not that familiar with the abbreviations. I appreciate the responses and first hand experiences. Please, keep them coming!

Which terms don't you know?

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Anonymous — Wed, 17 May 2006 15:14:50 GMT

I am assuming "BIM" means something like "Building Image Modeling", is that correct?

Also, I don't know what was meant by "and we got shortlisted a minute ago, probably cuz of the bim thing.... (more ac selling for free)"

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Rakela Raul — Wed, 17 May 2006 15:24:39 GMT

http://www.aia.org/tap_a_0903bim

bim = click link abv (above)
cuz = because

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

TomWaltz — Wed, 17 May 2006 15:26:24 GMT

Jarvis wrote:
I am assuming "BIM" means something like "Building Image Modeling", is that correct?

Also, I don't know what was meant by "and we got shortlisted a minute ago, probably cuz of the bim thing.... (more ac selling for free)"

BIM is Building Information Modeling, which refers to a program like Archicad or Revit.

"Shortlisting" is part of a process where some body or organization is picking from a large group of architects that they will use and has narrowed it down to a small, select group. Sometimes this happens initially, and only a small group is invited to submit designs/proposals.

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Anonymous — Wed, 17 May 2006 15:46:55 GMT

Wow, that article at http://www.aia.org/tap_a_0903bim was absolutely perfect. It discounts egregious claims about separating 2D and 3D tasks and points out the "old" and inefficient approach, while also highlighting ArchiCad specifically for being ahead of the curve and leading the industry. And its sponsored by the AIA. Many thanks. Any other similar websites or forums I should search?

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Anonymous — Wed, 17 May 2006 16:05:51 GMT

It seems to be a typical case of the fear of becoming redundant when the role of cross checking documents is minimized, what you need to do to win him over is to make him feel comfortable with the new process, he has to be assured that his experience and knowledge in architecture and construction will remain highly needed in a BIM world. after all AC is only as good as the information you feed into it.

maybe we need a new term here BIMopheobia! any psychiatrists out there willing to study ways of overcoming it?

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Anonymous — Thu, 18 May 2006 00:46:05 GMT

I have a quad g5 and 30" HD and find that the rendering is actually slower than my laptop PC. And have you encountered where the mouse tracks slower in ArchiCad than in other programs?

TomWaltz wrote:
Jarvis wrote:
I am assuming "BIM" means something like "Building Image Modeling", is that correct?

Also, I don't know what was meant by "and we got shortlisted a minute ago, probably cuz of the bim thing.... (more ac selling for free)"
BIM is Building Information Modeling, which refers to a program like Archicad or Revit.

"Shortlisting" is part of a process where some body or organization is picking from a large group of architects that they will use and has narrowed it down to a small, select group. Sometimes this happens initially, and only a small group is invited to submit designs/proposals.

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

TomWaltz — Thu, 18 May 2006 12:06:26 GMT

Jarvis wrote:
I have a quad g5 and 30" HD and find that the rendering is actually slower than my laptop PC. And have you encountered where the mouse tracks slower in ArchiCad than in other programs?

Not at all. I find that my renderings absolutely fly.

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Anonymous — Thu, 18 May 2006 13:55:51 GMT

Jarvis wrote:
I have a quad g5 and 30" HD and find that the rendering is actually slower than my laptop PC. And have you encountered where the mouse tracks slower in ArchiCad than in other programs?

Where did you get your RAM? I have seen some horrors with no-name RAM. (This often applies to dealer installed RAM too, there is no telling where they got it from.) It is best to have Apple install it or buy from a top of the line maker such as Crucial.

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Anonymous — Mon, 22 May 2006 21:42:40 GMT

Jarvis wrote:
Wow, that article at http://www.aia.org/tap_a_0903bim was absolutely perfect. It discounts egregious claims about separating 2D and 3D tasks and points out the "old" and inefficient approach, while also highlighting ArchiCad specifically for being ahead of the curve and leading the industry. And its sponsored by the AIA. Many thanks. Any other similar websites or forums I should search?

Jarvis,

I'm in a structural engineering firm and I agree that you should highlight the 3d versus 2d issue. And as far as "industry standard", we use Autodesk Revit Structure and are currently trading models with a local architect that does wonderful work with Archicad.

Industry standard for the future is going to be something like IFC's. I don't know if it will settle on that specifically but right now it seems like the big one. As long as programs are capable of exporting and importing IFC files ..... there shouldn't be too much trouble with exchanging files (there are still issues, but they're workable)....

Stick to your guns unless it's gonna cost you a job you can't afford to lose!

Rick

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Djordje — Tue, 23 May 2006 03:01:35 GMT

Paper is also an "industry standard", yet rarely anybody does it by hand any more ... and an AutoCAD file is barely more than an electronic drawing. It is widespread because it is the lowest common denominator that mostyl anyone can understand and use up to a point.

It is the fear of the unknown and the unwillingnes - or the inability - to learn, sometimes even understand. As a concept, VB runs circles around CAD any time.

Another take on the comparison is return on investment - it has been proven that the productivity in VB/BIM environments is 40-60% higher than in the traditional drafting environments. There are articles on this topic on the Graphisoft web site, search a bit.

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

Scott Davis — Tue, 23 May 2006 03:46:40 GMT

Autodesk is now recommending transfer between Arch Desktop and Revit using IFC. Arch Desktop items keep their 'intelligence' through IFC when brought into Revit, something that even the "almighty" DWG cannot do.

Re: Help me win the ArchiCad vs AutoCad office debate

stefan — Tue, 23 May 2006 06:48:37 GMT

Scott wrote:
Autodesk is now recommending transfer between Arch Desktop and Revit using IFC. Arch Desktop items keep their 'intelligence' through IFC when brought into Revit, something that even the "almighty" DWG cannot do.

I was told at the local Autodesk User Conference sessions that ADT could exchange intelligent objects with Revit Structure and I assumed it used DWG files. Any chance you know something about it?
The full building model of ADT is kept inside a "mighty" DWG file, so Autodesk should have ways to translate that info over to Revit.

But I do hope that even Autodesk will refocus their attention to IFC and provide a clean and smooth transfer between ADT, Revit and (as a consequence) ArchiCAD. At the moment, the ADT IFC plugin is a non-free add-on which is as much as saying: "you don't need it, and if you do, check with someone else".
e.g. IFC plugin for ADT = http://www.inopso.com