topic Re: subscription service to start in US this summer in Modeling

subscription service to start in US this summer

Erika Epstein — Wed, 04 May 2005 19:04:30 GMT

I went to hear Donald R. Henrich II, V.P. and general manager of Graphisoft North America Last night.
Among other things, he mentioned that starting this summer in the US

- they will now offer a subscription service for $695 per annum which bundles in many of the new and upcoming additional feature like cinema 4D, etabs, IES, etc. ... something about your choice of 6 or 7 of the 10 products...

-For those customers who prefer to keep doing business with Graphisoft as they have been they can continue to purchase AC upgrades only when they come out (AC10 due next February)

- they will not make the mistake of autodesk where they will discontinue support and/or make licenses illegal if you don't upgrade

-emphasized the impact of contractors around the world (as did Gallelo a few months ago) who are using AC creating models for construction estimating and cost-related scheduling on the development of archicad. This has been in my opinion tremendously beneficial for all AC users bringing us more add-ons and features we have long wanted. I'm looking forward to them becoming cost-effective to use for mid and smaller size firms.

Anybody know more about this?

Heard that subscriptions have started already in the UK; anyone care to comment?
cachink

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Scott Davis — Thu, 05 May 2005 00:33:59 GMT

Erika wrote:
- they will not make the mistake of autodesk where they will discontinue support and/or make licenses illegal if you don't upgrade

Autodesk licenses are never illegal if you don't upgrade. You buy it, it's your's for life.

Does Graphisoft still provide support for ArchiCAD 1.0?

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Erika Epstein — Thu, 05 May 2005 00:41:59 GMT

wonder what he meant then. that was from my notes; not that I am perfect.
I think he was trying make the point that Graphisoft would not make whatever mistakes they perceive autocad had.
hmm.

Scott, he'll be talking in Orange county next week, maybe you could go and get a clarification.

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

__archiben — Thu, 05 May 2005 00:58:49 GMT

Erika wrote:
Heard that subscriptions have started already in the UK; anyone care to comment?

far easier to sell to the directors as they had a concrete figure to put in the budget for IT every year.

cachink

oh yeah!

~/archiben

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Scott Davis — Thu, 05 May 2005 01:09:22 GMT

Erika wrote:
Scott, he'll be talking in Orange county next week, maybe you could go and get a clarification.

Where? What time? I'm always up for hearing what others are doing!

I'll let you know when Phil Bernstein will be around...if anyone (regardless of software choice) has the change to see Phil speak, it's well worth it. He speaks about the future of our profession, and it's very enlightening!

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Anonymous — Thu, 05 May 2005 03:00:13 GMT

Erika Eptein

Can you describe these new and upcoming additional features? "cinema 4D, etabs, IES, etc..."

ACX next Feb.? I hope it's really good!

Thanks

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Erika Epstein — Thu, 05 May 2005 05:56:22 GMT

Isn't he speaking at Digital Vision next week?

The other programs do modeling program, cost estimating, things like that. I was hoping someone here knew more.

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Djordje — Fri, 06 May 2005 06:42:19 GMT

Scott wrote:
Autodesk licenses are never illegal if you don't upgrade. You buy it, it's your's for life.

Try upgrading AutoCAD 12, or, for that matter, 14, to 2005 or now 2006.

Scott wrote:
Does Graphisoft still provide support for ArchiCAD 1.0?

AFAIK you can upgrade to 9 ... I definitely know of a few recent cases of ArchiCAD 5 to 9 upgrade - just to enlighten you, it is 8 years' span.

ArchiCAD users are not forced to upgrade, Scott. They want to or don't want to. But, they can. Always. That is the point.

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Scott Davis — Fri, 06 May 2005 17:34:39 GMT

But the position that Autodesk's policy is out of the norm in the software industry is wrong. I can't upgrade my Win 3.1 to Win XP. I can't upgrade my Apple Basic OS to OSX. I can't Upgrade my Photoshop 1 to Photoshop 7.

At some point in time, there is a cut off. You bought the software years ago, and used it until it was actually detrimental to workflow to continue using it. So then you go out and buy a new version. At a point, it's beyond an upgrade...just buy it!

Same with AutoCAD 12. If you are on AutoCAD 12 and never upgraded, and now want AutoCAD 2006, go buy it! If not, continue to use AutoCAD 12 if you can still run it on your machine.

Autodesk users are not forced to upgrade either. I could stay on Revit 7.0 for 20 years if I could keep it running on a computer. If 20 years from now, I want to look into Revit 2025, I'm going to be paying full price.

So back to my question...if I were still using ArchiCAD 1.0, and had a question..who would I call?

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

TomWaltz — Fri, 06 May 2005 17:41:47 GMT

So back to my question...if I were still using ArchiCAD 1.0, and had a question..who would I call?

Your local dealer.

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Scott Davis — Fri, 06 May 2005 21:51:28 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
So back to my question...if I were still using ArchiCAD 1.0, and had a question..who would I call?
Your local dealer.

And I expect that Graphisoft has done continual training for all of it's dealers, so that all are experts in every release of ArchiCAD, back to version 1? I highly doubt that. I think that if you called your local dealer, and said "I'm having a problem in AC 1.0" that they would first: be shocked. Second: laugh. Third: tell you that no one in there office can remember 1.0. Fourth: try and talk you in to purchasing a new version.

Ok, so that was all said tongue-in-cheek, so don't take it the wrong way. I too would call my local reseller, but I would be crazy to think that they could really provide 'support' to software that was that old. I'm sure they'd try to help, but would not be able to give me a definative answer to my problems.

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Aussie John — Sat, 07 May 2005 00:37:45 GMT

Djordje wrote:
I definitely know of a few recent cases of ArchiCAD 5 to 9 upgrade - just to enlighten you, it is 8 years' span.

ArchiCAD users are not forced to upgrade, Scott. They want to or don't want to. But, they can. Always. That is the point.

GS usually charges for the interim upgrades as well. Im not sure if you go back to 5 with that method, but you certainly pay extra if you arent at the latest release. That is a defacto "force to upgrade". Sooner or later you have to upgrade. Does version 5 run on windows or Mac OS X? no

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Thomas Holm — Sat, 07 May 2005 10:46:16 GMT

I can't Upgrade my Photoshop 1 to Photoshop 7

You can. Adobe will give you a hefty rebate if you own ANY old licensed version, when you purchase the current version. So will Graphisoft, even if the price reductions differs depending on how old your license is.

But not Autodesk. A too old version of Autocad will not entitle you to any price reduction when you purchase the current version.

That is the case with Apple, too. On the other hand, a new version of OSX costs about 1/40 of a new license of Autocad.

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Anonymous — Sat, 07 May 2005 13:15:17 GMT

Thomas wrote:
But not Autodesk. A too old version of Autocad will not entitle you to any price reduction when you purchase the current version.

This is the Point... While my old AutoCAD R14 is not illegal, Autodesk was going to "drop me like a hot rock". Not having the tech support for the older version was understandable, but to treat me like a new buyer right off the street. Thank You Autodesk.... because of your policy I "dropped you and now a more than happy with ArchiCAD.

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Eduardo Rolon — Sat, 07 May 2005 14:39:14 GMT

Thomas wrote:
That is the case with Apple, too. On the other hand, a new version of OSX costs about 1/40 of a new license of Autocad.

AFAIK that is the case for Apple for iLife and it's OS, all of the Pro Apps have Upgrades. On a different note SolidWorks created an application that runs within AutoCAD (R14 and upwards) that lets you open any dwg file independent of the version that created it in order to avoid the;

"if I don't keep a version of AutoCAD recent I will to be compatible with anyone else, so I can't afford to switch CAD programs"

Beyond the Upgrade when we want you to or buy a subscription because if you do not you will have to pay full price concept, I consider Autodesk's removal of dwg support for older versions its most anti users practice. When Autocad 2004 came out there was no option to saveas as a R14 dwg which was the most common version running but you could saveas a R2000 version open it in Autocad 2000 or 2002 and then save it as a R14 dwg without any problems. Most regular Autocad users were not informed about this and I know that a lot of dealers got angry calls because people could not "share files" with their consultants. And if you read the EULA it said clearly that if you upgraded to R2004 you had to remove you previous version so if you kept and older copy installed to saveas R14 you were in fact violating your license. Add to this the registration scheme by which if you went beyond 4 installations (by whatever reason) you will not be able to run the program you "Bought/Licensed" without calling and proving that you were not guilty of being a pirate and you arrive at a company that only cares about its bottom line. I don't want to say that Autodesk is not allowed to make money (that is why they are a company) but you make money by making a superior product not by forcing your users to pay yearly upgrades and penalizing them when they do not.
This and the unnecessary yearly updates are the reasons why I stopped buying Autodesk's products and why I don't recommend using any of them. In Autocad 2006 the main selling point is that they moved the command line to the cursor but I have not used the command line since R12 after sitting down and creating all of my keyboard shortcuts, the other point was that they created an easier plotting experience but plotting was very easy up to the R2000 when they changed it.
If GS is moving to a subscription model I hope that they do not start releasing yearly "Upgrades" to justify the subscriptions, a new release should be sold when they are ready and worth it, not because of a time limit.

Sorry for the long post.

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Djordje — Mon, 09 May 2005 16:29:55 GMT

Scott wrote:
Ok, so that was all said tongue-in-cheek, so don't take it the wrong way. I too would call my local reseller, but I would be crazy to think that they could really provide 'support' to software that was that old. I'm sure they'd try to help, but would not be able to give me a definative answer to my problems.

You are switching issues here.

The point was, your original investment, whatever it was at the time, is recognized. You are not treated as a chequebook.

So admit the truth, Scott. The subscription scheme is paying for the development of Revit. If they were honest like Graphisoft was, they would use decimal versions because the news do not deserve full number vesions. It is all marketing, and a source of income.

Not that Graphisoft's subscription is much different in that manner; BUT, they also include insurance, wherever you are, so if you lose your dongle or if it is damaged, you get a new one free.

And so on ...

Re: subscription service to start in US this summer

Scott Davis — Mon, 09 May 2005 20:35:47 GMT

Djordje wrote:
So admit the truth, Scott. The subscription scheme is paying for the development of Revit.

One can buy any piece of Autodesk software on subscription. As with any company, part of the income will be used on development. So is the subscription paying for developement? I'm sure it contributes to it just as a purchase fee would. Graphisoft now seems to think that subscription is a good idea. There are many other software companies moving to a subscription based model.

Djordje wrote:
If they were honest like Graphisoft was, they would use decimal versions because the news do not deserve full number vesions.

Funny, I seem to remeber many ArchiCAD users expressing the same concerns a while ago. (AC 8.0?) Many argued that it should have been a point release, and not an incremental release.

Every version of Revit has been wholly deserving of a full release. Every full release (with the expection of Revit 7.0) have had incremental point releases. Revit 5.1, 6.1, etc. 7.0 was released in Dec 2004, and 8.0 in April 2005, hardly time for a point release in between. Revit 8.0 has plenty of new features and tools to justify a full numerical release.