topic Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange in Modeling

U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

JCovarrubias — Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:53:00 GMT

It has been suggested to me (by an end-user) that since there is little contact between the US end-users (with possibly the US Resellers as being the point of contact) and the GSHU developers (inc. their GSHU representatives), there should be a yearly meeting of some type.

Would any of these be a good idea for an exchange of ideas, goals, intentions, comments?

a.) "brown-bag type" informal lunch seminar (1-2 days) in the US
b.) live online chat+WebEx discussions (several hours)
c.) new, limited-time (over the course of 30 days), explicit forum category on AC-Talk
d.) some other medium(s) or combination

Let me know what you think.

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

rm — Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:13:07 GMT

Jeffry,

What a great idea.......hope GS can pull this off. Thanks for taking the lead on this effort.

Regards,
Architects Design Forum, Ltd.

Robert Mariani

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Anonymous — Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:42:08 GMT

Sounds like a good idea but what is the difference between that and the current wishlist? I think all the same issue will be raised again.. There are standouts in the wishlists that are perennial repeats that once addressed will GREATLY help...

So "C." should be enough..

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Anonymous — Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:03:15 GMT

Honestly, between this forum and ArchiCAD University events (two last year and three this year) it seems like we have this pretty well covered. There may well be room for more events of various types but I'm not sure it would be cost effective for Graphisoft to host an annual US event. Considering that they are an international firm this would presumably mean similar events in Germany, England, Australia, etc... This would obviously spread the company a bit thin. I imagine the developers spending more time discussing our wishes than coding them into the software.

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Anonymous — Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:45:22 GMT

Yes Matthew.. the wishist should be a to-die-for list for GS. Even Autodesk would find it handy.. Perhaps those at GS feel it is a minority vote.. if so they should expend extra effort to grow AC-talk participation. As a new user I couldn't have made it through the first few weeks in AC without it..

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Anonymous — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:14:23 GMT

I'd say a better use of resources would be to have some realistic walk-thrus of completing some projects (residential, commercial, etc?). These would be similar to the Framework book. Sort of a "standard practices" booklet, probably giving us some insight into how GS inteded the software to be used. The Step-by-Step tutorial is a "step" in the right direction only WAY too weak.

...AND, it would be nice if it could be available online for easy accessability to everyone - one for the whole world (and beyond?)...

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Dave Jochum — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 05:25:53 GMT

Sergio wrote:
I'd say a better use of resources would be to have some realistic walk-thrus of completing some projects (residential, commercial, etc?). These would be similar to the Framework book. Sort of a "standard practices" booklet, probably giving us some insight into how GS inteded the software to be used. The Step-by-Step tutorial is a "step" in the right direction only WAY too weak.

When I started using VectorWorks and then AC, I was very disappointed that something like this did not exist with either program or in the after-market--actually, I'd say I was incredulous. Project Framework and Step by Step are both just baby steps toward a comprehensive guide that would be invaluable for probably 90% of the user base. If GS produced such a book (I'll call it a book, but it could be online) and included it with AC, I think they would win over a lot of switchers as well as those migrating from hand-drawing. In my case, I'd gladly pay for a first rate manual of this nature.

I think we (users and GS) forget just how unique a product AC is. BIM requires a completely different methodology and workflow than other CAD packages. Even those of us who do "get it" fail to capitalize on much of the power of the program.

A good friend of mine--a very good architect--did all his drawings by hand with ink on mylar until 4 or 5 years ago. The day Staedler quit producing the erasers for this combination, he realized he was going to have to switch to CAD. He bought VW and simply produced his drawings in 2D just like he had been for the previous 30 years by hand. I convinced him to hook up with an AC reseller and look at a demo. He liked what he saw and bought it, but he has never figured out how to use it properly. He still does a majority of his work in 2D with VW. He has built several AC models, so he understands the basics, but he hasn't realized the power of BIM. I just wonder how many other AC users out there are similarly handicapping themselves. My bet is quite a few.

Rather than the suggestions Jeffry posed in originating this thread, I would prefer to see GS's resources directed toward an effort of this nature--in addition to a continued diligent monitoring of this forum (and possibly more direct involvement) and especially the wish list.

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

__archiben — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:04:46 GMT

Dave wrote:
BIM requires a completely different methodology and workflow than other CAD packages. Even those of us who do "get it" fail to capitalize on much of the power of the program.

Rather than the suggestions Jeffry posed in originating this thread, I would prefer to see GS's resources directed toward an effort of this nature--in addition to a continued diligent monitoring of this forum (and possibly more direct involvement) and especially the wish list.

whilst not a US archiCAD user, it is probably not my place to answer the call of jeffry's original proposal, however i would like to capitalise on dave's comments above. i wholehearted agree that directing resources toward BIM education and methodology is essential for the development and use of all BIM related products in the industry.

i have just had an incredibly frustrating week of dealing with flatland mentality: masonry specials drawn line-by-line in isometric and counted by eye; somebody working in 2D on a copy of the file "because i don't what to mess up what he's doing with the model", etc, etc. i am blue in the face from continually explaining the concept and suggesting methodologies that are then simply forgotten, ignored or perhaps never fully understood in the first place. i may not be as articulate as matthew, djordje, karl et al in explaining these issues (to colleagues, etc.), but i do feel that the understanding requires something more fundamental than i am able to give.

djordje posted a link to a very interesting article concerning BIM in another topic; contractors are beginning to appreciate the use of the 'virtual building model' - possibly because they are closer to the 'physical building model'. architects, engineers, etc are going to find themselves left behind without education on the direction the industry is surely going to take.

a concerted, single effort from all companies producing BIM software positing the future of the virtual building is what i believe is needed. however this kind of approach would be hard enough to achieve without one of the biggest players also responsible the biggest flatland software!

rant over. sorry for going off topic.

~/archiben

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Karl Ottenstein — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:05:17 GMT

JCovarrubias wrote:
Would any of these be a good idea for an exchange of ideas, goals, intentions, comments?

a.) "brown-bag type" informal lunch seminar (1-2 days) in the US
b.) live online chat+WebEx discussions (several hours)
c.) new, limited-time (over the course of 30 days), explicit forum category on AC-Talk
d.) some other medium(s) or combination

I agree with others that the wishlist should be a key source for this exchange, but I'm not averse to seeing (a), (c) or (d) as well although (a) will only attract those in the neighborhood or with plenty of $$ to travel to the meeting.

I'm definitely opposed to (b), from personal experience on Microsoft developer 'sessions'...which were a total waste of time as comments streamed completely out of synch...a question, coments and questions unrelated by the dozen, then someone responding to the original question, etc. As if someone took this forum and scrambled all of the messages throughout the threads and then you tried to make sense of them.

I also strongly agree about the need for a book - which I've talked about writing in the past (and many kindly offered their support - thank you!) - but I don't think that addresses the topic of this thread which is to get input to the developers.

Personally, I think the areas that the developers keep ignoring have nothing to do with the US market ... but everything to do with usability and with long-term wishes that our global community keeps asking for and never gets. I picture a brown bag lunch with a lot of angry people saying "How many more years to we have to keeep asking for x, y and z!!!" ... so what's the point of that?

Cheers,
Karl

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Karl Ottenstein — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:23:45 GMT

~/archiben wrote:
I am blue in the face from continually explaining the concept and suggesting methodologies that are then simply forgotten, ignored or perhaps never fully understood in the first place. i may not be as articulate as matthew, djordje, karl et al in explaining these issues (to colleagues, etc.), but i do feel that the understanding requires something more fundamental than i am able to give.

Thank you, Ben but, we all know you to be quite articulate and I tend to ramble along most of the time!

Staying off topic (sorry Jeffry)... if I can throw out some experience/opinion from my years of teaching at the university level: some people may never get it. Office hours were the time when I could one-on-one with someone for whom the approach used in the classroom or lecture hall wan't "clicking". Trying to find the "hook" that linked the topic and their unique psychology and experience was easy and interesting in 90% of the cases. With some, though, you'd go "well, think about it this way".... through every scenario you could think of and still get a blank look. And, you'd find later that other faculty in the discipline were having the same difficulty with the student and a year later they were in a different major. Whether it is a preconceived notion that the person refuses to let go of (and may refuse to share with you!), or a completely right-brained person having too much of a challenge getting their hands around a left-brained concept...sometimes the problem isn't the teacher. Or, at least that's the psychology of the teacher trying to feel better about not getting through. So, I wouldn't necessarily beat yourself up if your message isn't getting across!

Cheers,
Karl

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

stefan — Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:26:43 GMT

A lot of software companies have the luck that there are independent "tutorial" writers out there that make good books about their tools.

I have two books on 3ds max that describe one single project (a short commercial animation), going from conception to delivery. This included the gritty details on scripting your own tools to get the work done more efficiently.
The authors are often users with industry experience, which explains why they do it the "production"-way.

A similar approach, for a full-scale ArchiCAD-project, would probably take a very thick book, but I think a lot of ArchiCAD customers would even want to pay for it... well, if they are a bit like me. I like reading such books. Now I come to think about it, most people don't. They install the software and start (ab)using it.

So, although I prefer a good book, I guess most ArchiCAD-users (and software-users in general) won't even bother...

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Dave Jochum — Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:58:24 GMT

stefan wrote:
A similar approach, for a full-scale ArchiCAD-project, would probably take a very thick book, but I think a lot of ArchiCAD customers would even want to pay for it... well, if they are a bit like me. I like reading such books. Now I come to think about it, most people don't. They install the software and start (ab)using it.

So, although I prefer a good book, I guess most ArchiCAD-users (and software-users in general) won't even bother...

As I've said before, I would definitely pay for such a book, although I am also one that would read a software manual before a Grisham novel (even software I don't own ) I don't know haw many registered users of AC there are, but I think that a book of this nature would be successful, as it's so sorely needed. I don't think anyone's going to rich writing this, but I do think the return would be worth the investment.

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

JCovarrubias — Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:11:47 GMT

Dave wrote:
stefan wrote:
A similar approach, for a full-scale ArchiCAD-project, would probably take a very thick book, but I think a lot of ArchiCAD customers would even want to pay for it... well, if they are a bit like me. I like reading such books. Now I come to think about it, most people don't. They install the software and start (ab)using it.

So, although I prefer a good book, I guess most ArchiCAD-users (and software-users in general) won't even bother...
As I've said before, I would definitely pay for such a book, although I am also one that would read a software manual before a Grisham novel (even software I don't own ) I don't know haw many registered users of AC there are, but I think that a book of this nature would be successful, as it's so sorely needed. I don't think anyone's going to rich writing this, but I do think the return would be worth the investment.

rumor mill: Project Framework 8.1

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Anonymous — Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:18:21 GMT

JCovarrubias wrote:
rumor mill: Project Framework 8.1

Could it really be true? I just hope they'll go into a bit more depth than the last Framework did (if my memory serves). And like I said, hope that it'll include a complicated residential AND commercial project.

...and could it be free? ...

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Djordje — Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:50:30 GMT

"SergioCould it really be true? I just hope they'll go into a bit more depth than the last Framework did (if my memory serves). And like I said, hope that it'll include a complicated residential AND commercial project.[/quote wrote:

Well ...

It is plainly impossible to cover every aspect of ArchiCAD application in one book, especially country or continent wise. "residential" might mean one thing in the US, another one in Europe, completely third one here.

One thing that the book should NOT do is tie itself to any region specific practice. That means covering log homes, curtain walls, wooden structure roofs, stainless steel cladding ... and what not.

But - the underlying principles and How Tos are mostly the same ...

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Anonymous — Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:16:47 GMT

Djordje wrote:
It is plainly impossible to cover every aspect of ArchiCAD application in one book, especially country or continent wise. "residential" might mean one thing in the US, another one in Europe, completely third one here.

What I meant is that they should cover things like making interactive schedules, calculations, etc. And the reason why I was asking for residential and commercial was because due to the size of the projects, some residential projects don't neccessarily need to be as complicated as a commercial project, and vice versa. I suppose another way to rephrase it is that there should be a simple project and a complicated one (though that doesn't sound right either)..

But I agree that it shouldn't be localized. That'd be kinda ridiculously useless for all the others that are left out (but I WOULD prefer it as a us version )

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:53:28 GMT

Great discussion! After many years of waiting, the opportunity to join in some form of discussion, not only about things that are needed and not provided, but for the future of development of the software, I am for an online discussion. Maybe the form could be a small group at a time to limit the volume of off topic interaction, that would focus on maybe one sector of information and use at a time. Although the wish list is really good and important, the developers need to be brought to day to day reality. Whether you're working on a single family dwelling or a high rise, there are some processes that are necessary all the time for all kinds of work. Those elements need to be included/updated/optimized just to stay current in the market.

Many moons ago there was a noontime chat on AOL that, I believe resulted in much improvement in the operability of the program. Perhaps it can happen again.

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:03:48 GMT

Lew,

What do you see as the advantage of a live chat over what we already have here?

It seems to me that the current set up provides both wider audience participation and more time for well considered responses than is possible in the chat format. I do very much appreciate the value of brainstorming sessions and design workshops, but I think these still need to be in person (call me old fashioned).

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

__archiben — Thu, 18 Mar 2004 21:50:28 GMT

Sergio wrote:
JCovarrubias wrote:
rumor mill: Project Framework 8.1
Could it really be true? I just hope they'll go into a bit more depth than the last Framework did (if my memory serves). And like I said, hope that it'll include a complicated residential AND commercial project.

...and could it be free? ...

call me cynical, but i don't think that "they" will actually be doing it. :
http://www.graphisoft.com/products/archicad/howto_comp.html

. . . but i may feel obliged to put my tuppence worth forward anyway.

~/archiben

Re: U.S. end-users/resellers + GS developers/rep's exchange

Anonymous — Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:35:32 GMT

Matt said:What do you see as the advantage of a live chat over what we already have here?

It is the concentration in relatively real time that makes the interaction work. Sometime the exploration of an idea can take form and develop by the stimulus of conversation. That is a reason for events like Archicad University, to get people thinking and exploring. That is not to say that this forum is not exceptional, it is. I just do not have the excess time to spend to participate in more than a few areas. Focus groups (bad words) can be productive at times of important transitions.

The ability to converse, even when trying to type quickly, provides more meaning and minimizes potential misunderstandings as feedback can be supplied directly.