topic Re: profile editor in Modeling

profile editor

Anonymous — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:13:59 GMT

Can someone give me some advice about how to use this tool? Is it this the best way to create unusual profiles? where can I found more info, tutorials and so? I've found some info in the Frank Lloyd Wright's Massaro House tutorial but is wasn't really useful.
thanks alot

Re: profile editor

Anonymous — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:01:59 GMT

Alan wrote:
Can someone give me some advice about how to use this tool? Is it this the best way to create unusual profiles?

Yes. As well as steel shapes, curved roofs, and all sorts of goodies.

where can I found more info, tutorials and so? I've found some info in the Frank Lloyd Wright's Massaro House tutorial but is wasn't really useful.
thanks alot

Try the search button at the top of this page. I'm pretty sure there has been a fair amount of discussion of this.

Re: profile editor

Laszlo Nagy — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:12:12 GMT

Alan wrote:
Can someone give me some advice about how to use this tool? Is it this the best way to create unusual profiles? where can I found more info, tutorials and so? I've found some info in the Frank Lloyd Wright's Massaro House tutorial but is wasn't really useful.
thanks alot

The AC10 New Features Guide gives you a lot of info. That is the version this tool first appeared.

Re: profile editor

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:02:06 GMT

laszlonagy wrote:
The AC10 New Features Guide gives you a lot of info. That is the version this tool first appeared.

Agree that a little more info is there, Laszlo. But, most of that does appear in the 11 reference manual and help file. Maybe we can all add some more info here?

Unless I'm blind (possible!), neither the 10 NFG nor the current documentation mentions the importance of the origin in the profile editor, especially with respect to walls. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the origin defines both (1) the vertical base of the wall for insertion and (2) the location of the reference line.

Fills drawn to the left of the origin are to the thickened part of the wall, relative to the ref line and the current wall geometry settings. That is, if the ref line is typically drawn on the exterior of the building, the elements to the left of the editor origin are towards the interior, and those to the right are towards the exterior.

The origin-as-reference line location removes a terrible opportunity for error with composite walls. With composites, one has to use the ref line offset value if one wants the ref line to align with the core. If the composite changes, the offset has to be changed (Modify Wall), and if the user draws another wall type without resetting the offset, things become a mess. With the new complex profiles, the reference line will be locked to the correct position when the offset is kept at 0. If the structure of the profile changes, just select all and drag to relocate the assembly at the proper location relative to the editor origin.

The Wiki article here:
http://www.archicadwiki.com/TechNotes/Composite_Walls_with_Varying_Skin_Heights
(which I think you may have written?) gives an excellent example of using a complex profile vs a composite and solid element ops - although the inside/outside is the opposite of what I just said above, which makes me think I'm missing something.

An important thing in the Wiki article is that the extended brick and sheathing - down to the brick ledge - is below the editor origin, or wall base. This is something that cannot be realized with a composite wall and an SEOp. The result is that if such a complex wall is set to Automatic, it will remain on the story it is originally placed on - the extension 'does not count'. Replicating this with a complex wall and SEOp substract, the base of the wall is below the current story of insertion, and if the wall is automatic, it's home will be on a story below.

Whether the Wiki or the user manual, IMHO, much more should be written and illustrated to show the power and tradeoffs of profiles. 😉

Cheers,
Karl

Re: profile editor

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:04:52 GMT

Karl wrote:
laszlonagy wrote:
The AC10 New Features Guide gives you a lot of info. That is the version this tool first appeared.
Agree that a little more info is there, Laszlo. But, most of that does appear in the 11 reference manual and help file. Maybe we can all add some more info here?

Unless I'm blind (possible!), neither the 10 NFG nor the current documentation mentions the importance of the origin in the profile editor, especially with respect to walls. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the origin defines both (1) the vertical base of the wall for insertion and (2) the location of the reference line.

Yes, it defines both, and it does it the way you describe it.

Fills drawn to the left of the origin are to the thickened part of the wall, relative to the ref line and the current wall geometry settings. That is, if the ref line is typically drawn on the exterior of the building, the elements to the left of the editor origin are towards the interior, and those to the right are towards the exterior.

Yes, correct.
The way I put it to myself:
If you set the Wall Construction Method to Left (meaning that the Wall extends to the left of the Reference Line) then if you cut a Section through the Wall in such a way that its looks from its starting point toward its end point, you will see in the Section the Profile you draw in the Profile Manager. Not very easy to explain, a picture illustrates it muck better.

The origin-as-reference line location removes a terrible opportunity for error with composite walls. With composites, one has to use the ref line offset value if one wants the ref line to align with the core. If the composite changes, the offset has to be changed (Modify Wall), and if the user draws another wall type without resetting the offset, things become a mess. With the new complex profiles, the reference line will be locked to the correct position when the offset is kept at 0. If the structure of the profile changes, just select all and drag to relocate the assembly at the proper location relative to the editor origin.

Yes, this is a problem, I just had a case today where I had to deal with this.

The Wiki article here:
http://www.archicadwiki.com/TechNotes/Composite_Walls_with_Varying_Skin_Heights
(which I think you may have written?) gives an excellent example of using a complex profile vs a composite and solid element ops - although the inside/outside is the opposite of what I just said above, which makes me think I'm missing something.

I checked the article (which I did write, only quite a while ago) but as I see there is no reference to how the Wall was placed. Maybe it is me who is missing something.

An important thing in the Wiki article is that the extended brick and sheathing - down to the brick ledge - is below the editor origin, or wall base. This is something that cannot be realized with a composite wall and an SEOp. The result is that if such a complex wall is set to Automatic, it will remain on the story it is originally placed on - the extension 'does not count'. Replicating this with a complex wall and SEOp substract, the base of the wall is below the current story of insertion, and if the wall is automatic, it's home will be on a story below.

Yes, that is also an important point.

Whether the Wiki or the user manual, IMHO, much more should be written and illustrated to show the power and tradeoffs of profiles. 😉

Cheers,
Karl

Much more should and could... especially now, with a new version coming out every year.
Probably a separate article could be written just about the Left/Right/Center placement, plus the Offset, both in case of Straight and Complex Walls.
Laszlo

Re: profile editor

Bob Moore — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 02:53:55 GMT

Thanks Karl. I would never have figured that out from the manual, the Archicadwiki Tech Notes are a big help.

Re: profile editor

Link — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 06:24:06 GMT

laszlonagy wrote:
Probably a separate article could be written just about the Left/Right/Center placement, plus the Offset, both in case of Straight and Complex Walls.
Laszlo

Don't forget to mention that the local origin of the complex profile does not set the base height of the wall if part of the profile extrudes below it. It's the lowest part of the profile that shows in the Info Box as the base of the wall. At least it's correct in the Wall Settings dialog, but it's quite confusing and inconsistent to have conflicting information between the Info Box and Settings dialog, as Karl pointed out offline.

Cheers,
Link.

Re: profile editor

Karl Ottenstein — Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:45:46 GMT

Link wrote:
Don't forget to mention that the local origin of the complex profile does not set the base height of the wall if part of the profile extrudes below it. It's the lowest part of the profile that shows in the Info Box as the base of the wall. At least it's correct in the Wall Settings dialog, but it's quite confusing and inconsistent to have conflicting information between the Info Box and Settings dialog, as Karl pointed out offline.

Right. 😉 Thanks, Link. Repeating some of the offline online... part of the confusion / inconsistency is that, until complex profiles, the 'b' field in the Info Box could be read as both 'base' and 'bottom' (as opposed to 't' which always reads the z-height of the 'top'). Now, we can only think of 'b' as meaning 'bottom' for complex walls (but also 'base' for others - clear as mud?).

The users receives no feedback in the Info Box as to where the base, vs bottom, of a complex profiled wall is. (In the Wall Settings Dialog, it is the base position for insertion that is set - not the location of the wall bottom.)

Attached is a screenshot of the Info Box and the Wall settings dialog showing how one can infer (do the math) the location of the base, how much extends below it, etc. - the alternative is to have to open the Profile Editor and measure. Given that the base insertion point there is 10' (relative to project 0 - 0 relative to current) in the settings, but 'b' reads as 8'-2", we can conclude that 1'-2" of the profiled wall extends below the base.

It is a real hassle to figure out the height of the wall (base to top). The setting dialog shows 11'-2", so we subtract 1'-2" to see that it is really a 10' wall. Or different math on the info box, once we know the 1'-2" extension below the base. At least it is a little easier to do the math for metric people. 😉

GS needs to do something to unify and clarify this issue in the UI design of both Info Box and settings dialog IMHO - as Link says, it is inconsistent and confusing at present. I suspect this is one of those subtle things that just got overlooked with all of the other issues involved in the introduction of complex profiles in 10. Hopefully, they'll polish this in 12.

Cheers,
Karl

Re: profile editor

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:08:50 GMT

I have used this profile editor to model a log wall, more accurately than the AC11 standard. However, one item that I have run up against is that the doors will not place correctly. Windows do, Doors don't.

Re: profile editor

Laura Yanoviak — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:15:19 GMT

Brandon wrote:
I have used this profile editor to model a log wall, more accurately than the AC11 standard. However, one item that I have run up against is that the doors will not place correctly. Windows do, Doors don't.

Please define "place correctly" -- very vague...

Re: profile editor

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:18:24 GMT

The trim on the doors is not at the outside of the frame, but at the point it hits the round of the log.

Re: profile editor

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:15:49 GMT

Hi Brandon,

Good for you for giving profiles logs a shot! I can confirm that there is some kind of bug in doors, or at least D1 Entrance 11.

I'll be attaching a bunch of screenshots in consecutive posts to show everyone what is happening.

First, here's a screenshot of one profile with the opening ref lines at the outside of the logs entirely. (The fills I used were to show chinking and insulation between 12" logs BTW.)

Re: profile editor

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:16:33 GMT

2. Here's a screeenshot with the opening lines inset into the wall to the face of the chinking...

Re: profile editor

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:17:54 GMT

3. Here's a W1 Casement 11 and D1 Entrance 11 set for 'solid wall' inserted in one of each wall. This is an exterior view - the wall with inset opening lines is in the foreground...

Re: profile editor

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:21:02 GMT

4. And here's an interior view. (The wall with opening ref lines inset to chinking is in the distance.)

Notice how the window frame, casing, sill and stool only show up correctly for the inset opening line version. The window doesn't recognize the thickness of the wall in the first case.

The door is insanely bad.

I should mention that I copied the wall and made it an ordinary 12" solid wall. Window/door look fine there.

In all three walls (ordinary solid, log with opening on outside curve, and log with opening at chinking), the 2D symbols look fine for window and door. This is entirely a 3D bug...which I'll report...

Bummer,
Karl

Re: profile editor

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:21:54 GMT

What I'm looking to do is have the frame of the door the width of the logs stacks, 8" for example. Then the trim would sit over top of the frame. This lets the trim sit outside of the logs.

Re: profile editor

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:24:56 GMT

PS Here's a sectional view. Granted it isn't 'right', since I don't really know anything about log construction, but it gives others an example of what a (complex) profiled wall can do to add additional details to the model, in this case adding more than shows up in the simple archicad wall tool 'log' walls. Diameters could be varied, etc to give a better effect; I just multiplied my fills in the profile editor to get this quickly for testing purposes.

Cheers,
Karl

Re: profile editor

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:37:34 GMT

Brandon wrote:
What I'm looking to do is have the frame of the door the width of the logs stacks, 8" for example. Then the trim would sit over top of the frame. This lets the trim sit outside of the logs.

Aha. I've seen other log guys bevel the logs at door/window openings, so I misunderstood.

Setting the frame depth only deepens the frame ... leaving the casing inside the wall. The casing location, AFAIK, is determined automatically from what ArchiCAD reads as the wall thickness - total thickness for 'solid' walls, and thickness less certain veneers for the other types (brick, siding, etc).

Of course, neither what I tried, nor what you want, seems to work, as the width of the wall is not being picked up properly for some reason....

Karl