topic Re: Typical Design Fee in Modeling

Typical Design Fee

Anonymous — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:20:37 GMT

Just curious, what are your flat rates for designing residential work? I know it is a broad question but give a ex.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Dwight — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:37:05 GMT

Krikey. Flat rates? I'm voting "NO" on this one.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Anonymous — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:54:59 GMT

Cole_Construction wrote:
Just curious, what are your flat rates for designing residential work? I know it is a broad question but give a ex.

Your question is not as broad as it is "loaded." Seriously, I'm not really sure there is such a thing as a "flat rate."

Residential work??? Is it a typical builder set with minimal or no details or custom design with a substantial amount of detail.

Is the work for a volume builder who will use the design multiple times or for an individual who will build it once?

Is it single family or multi-family?

There are just too many flavors of residential work to specify a flat rate.

Re: Typical Design Fee

__archiben — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:04:29 GMT

Dwight wrote:
Krikey. Flat rates? I'm voting "NO" on this one.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Rakela Raul — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:37:52 GMT

no body put some numbers down ??? first, flat fee is a nono; second, fees varies from town to town, but if u wanna hear some numbers lets try:

residential, i have seen people calculate their fees in diff ways, some people use an amount per sq footage which varies from 3 to 6 dls....and because this is not a good or rt way of calculat'g a fee cuz of differences in design and complexity and detail, etc..it is done calculating how many sheets the construction documents wd take and they approximate 30 to 50hrs per dwg and then u come out with a fee....others come out with a fee according to the sq footage of the residence and the approx construction cost times 6 to 12% of that.....and some others just need to keep their people busy and dont make any profit but dont let go anybody......i should go back and read your question,,before i submit this,,but kind of late now...if wrong, beyond sorry.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Anonymous — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:52:08 GMT

Thank you. I have a buddy of mine that lives in Chicago and he is getting 17% of the total construction costs. That is a lot in my mind.

Rakela wrote:
no body put some numbers down ??? first, flat fee is a nono; second, fees varies from town to town, but if u wanna hear some numbers lets try:

residential, i have seen people calculate their fees in diff ways, some people use an amount per sq footage which varies from 3 to 6 dls....and because this is not a good or rt way of calculat'g a fee cuz of differences in design and complexity and detail, etc..it is done calculating how many sheets the construction documents wd take and they approximate 30 to 50hrs per dwg and then u come out with a fee....others come out with a fee according to the sq footage of the residence and the approx construction cost times 6 to 12% of that.....and some others just need to keep their people busy and dont make any profit but dont let go anybody......i should go back and read your question,,before i submit this,,but kind of late now...if wrong, beyond sorry.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Djordje — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:45:04 GMT

Cole_Construction wrote:
Thank you. I have a buddy of mine that lives in Chicago and he is getting 17% of the total construction costs. That is a lot in my mind.

Sounds like quite a bit ...

In UK, you have a regulation scale that defines the fees per the pahse of the work, proportionate to the total value, as a percentage of the total value. Now the people practising there can say something on this

Around here, it is a "you are my friend, so I will give you this job" thing ...

Re: Typical Design Fee

Anonymous — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:53:09 GMT

Cole_Construction wrote:
Thank you. I have a buddy of mine that lives in Chicago and he is getting 17% of the total construction costs. That is a lot in my mind.

Rakela wrote:
...residential, i have seen people calculate their fees in diff ways...

Cole,
Hmmm 17%??? Not impossible but not really typical either. If we all made that kind of money none of us would spend time gleaning "best practices" on this forum...we'd all be sippin' fruity drinks on a tropical island somewhere.

Back to your original question "...what are your flat rates for designing residential work?..." Obviously you're not asking about design only...surely you mean SD/DD/CD. What exactly is your friend providing for this fee and/or what kind of residential work does he do?

I've actually worked on some higher-end residential projects in the chicagoland area that commanded these kinds of fees. The projects required a substantial amount of time to complete, extensive detailing, never ending changes and alot of "hand-holding" with the clients.

You could potentially get these kinds of fees in Dallas...say, in the more exclusive Highland Park area. Is this the kind of work you're thinking about?

I think Rakela offered some of the more typical fee scenarios. I personally have a sliding scale based on square footage and the number of options for my "production builder" type of work. This works for me because I don't work on projects requiring alot of specific detailing - If you do more custom work, this type of fee structure would eat you alive.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Eduardo Rolon — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:29:38 GMT

Down here the local Architectural Assoc. publishes a set of tables based on an estimate of the cost for construction ( sq.ft. times $cost per sq. foot) for different types of projects there is a complexity factor (ex, office bldgs = 1x, custom houses and museums are 1.75x, parkings and warehouses are .75x) so a 2000 sq. ft. house @ $100/sf is $200,000 times a factor of 1.75 is $350,000 design fees for that price range is 12% which results in a $42,000 fee. The consultants get approx a 30% cut of that and overhead and production should only take another 30-40% which ideally leaves a 30% profit on the project.
And that means that either you work fast and efficient or you pay your employees less than the manager at McDonalds, which a lot of offices are doing. Typical salary for a recent Architectural Graduate with a Masters Degree is between $10-12 US per hour.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Rakela Raul — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:41:44 GMT

so eduardo,
a 2,000 sf residence that cost 200,000 dls to build it (100 dls/sf, which is a little high but ok)......will cost the owner almost 1/4 of that (40,000-50,000 dls) for a/e services....r u sure??

Re: Typical Design Fee

Eduardo Rolon — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:12:52 GMT

OOPS the factor is 1.3 total fees are 31,200 (design fees are 25,350 services during construction make up the difference), I just wrote from memory just went to check the tables
As to the $100/sf you have to take in consideration that we are an island were most things are imported + the import tax + as a US territory we are not allowed to use any other commercial shipping than US companies (most expensive) which in the end makes everything about 30% more expensive than in the US. A mini cooper cost here $33,000 vs $21,000 for the US.
Also the primary construction material down here is concrete, we don't use wood frame construction due to hurricanes, the banks and the insurance rates.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Anonymous — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:25:59 GMT

Dan wrote:
Cole_Construction wrote:
Thank you. I have a buddy of mine that lives in Chicago and he is getting 17% of the total construction costs. That is a lot in my mind.

Rakela wrote:
...residential, i have seen people calculate their fees in diff ways...

Cole,
Hmmm 17%??? Not impossible but not really typical either. If we all made that kind of money none of us would spend time gleaning "best practices" on this forum...we'd all be sippin' fruity drinks on a tropical island somewhere.

Back to your original question "...what are your flat rates for designing residential work?..." Obviously you're not asking about design only...surely you mean SD/DD/CD. What exactly is your friend providing for this fee and/or what kind of residential work does he do?

I've actually worked on some higher-end residential projects in the chicagoland area that commanded these kinds of fees. The projects required a substantial amount of time to complete, extensive detailing, never ending changes and alot of "hand-holding" with the clients.

You could potentially get these kinds of fees in Dallas...say, in the more exclusive Highland Park area. Is this the kind of work you're thinking about?

One of my last projects, was a 6000 sf house in Tyler, TX. I had 6 design meetings and it took about 2 years to complete. In all I charged them 7% of total costs which to me," wasn't enough." I deal with more high-end couples looking for a designer/CM/hand-holder, that can make a descision to save there lives. I am just a little confused on my fee at the moment.

BTW- I am really looking forward to using ArchiCad fulltime, but I just havent had enough time to learn all the in's and out's of it.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Vitruvius — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:29:47 GMT

I've been doing custom residential off and on for 20 years, across 3 continents and about 12 time zones. And it's impossible to do a decent residential project for a fee under 15% (assuming the project is US $400K +). A quality project needs a fee of about 18%+ to be viable at that scale. Keep in mind that these projects will run months through the design phase.

And contract admin is a per diem thingy on top of that.

On smaller projects (like under $100K) we've charged 25%+ and not made a sou. Won't go there again.

Even if you're the best designer ever, and a CAD gunslinger akin to Wyatt Earp, these projects move at the pace at which your client can digest all that stuff. Which is to say, they move at a snails pace. And a prevaricating, constipated, directionally confused snail at that.

So, yes you can do residential projects for under 15%. But that's only on the assumption you're doing it as a money spunking hobby akin to big yacht racing...

Re: Typical Design Fee

Anonymous — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:50:29 GMT

Vitruvius wrote:
I've been doing custom residential off and on for 20 years, across 3 continents and about 12 time zones. And it's impossible to do a decent residential project for a fee under 15% (assuming the project is US $400K +). A quality project needs a fee of about 18%+ to be viable at that scale. Keep in mind that these projects will run months through the design phase.

And contract admin is a per diem thingy on top of that.

On smaller projects (like under $100K) we've charged 25%+ and not made a sou. Won't go there again.

Even if you're the best designer ever, and a CAD gunslinger akin to Wyatt Earp, these projects move at the pace at which your client can digest all that stuff. Which is to say, they move at a snails pace. And a prevaricating, constipated, directionally confused snail at that.

So, yes you can do residential projects for under 15%. But that's only on the assumption you're doing it as a money spunking hobby akin to big yacht racing...

Great Post, my thoughts exactly.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Pete — Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:43:01 GMT

Wow! A half-million dollar home, therefore, would generate $75K or more in fees. If your hourly rate is $125 (established Architect), then the job took you 600 hours!

That's a lot of Architecture for a $500K house (2000-4000 sq ft). How many of those hours were spent by the "drafting technician" that would not, in theory, be billed at $125 per hour?

Don't get me wrong, by all means get whatever the market allows. I'm just amazed that people can stay busy with those rates. Mr. Cole, I'm guessing that 6000sf home cost at least $750K. If you charged 7% and burned less than 450 hours, you did OK in my book.

Interesting topic!

Re: Typical Design Fee

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:55:52 GMT

Pete wrote:
Wow! A half-million dollar home, therefore, would generate $75K or more in fees. If your hourly rate is $125 (established Architect), then the job took you 600 hours!

That's a lot of Architecture for a $500K house (2000-4000 sq ft). How many of those hours were spent by the "drafting technician" that would not, in theory, be billed at $125 per hour?

Don't get me wrong, by all means get whatever the market allows. I'm just amazed that people can stay busy with those rates. Mr. Cole, I'm guessing that 6000sf home cost at least $750K. If you charged 7% and burned less than 450 hours, you did OK in my book.

Interesting topic!

Your on the right track, Pete. It took me about 465 hours and the house did cost about $860k. I stay very busy, but remember I was acting as a design/build contractor for the house also a CM for the couple.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Rakela Raul — Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:12:12 GMT

cole-construction:
if u charged 7% for that job....u only charged for architecture....the construction was a gift on u..........10% to 15% is the markup for gc's.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Pete — Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:18:37 GMT

So your 465 hours included the CM work? If that's the case, you are providing a pretty good value. If you are taking the risks of a general contractor, then you need to charge more, IMHO.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:37:37 GMT

Pete wrote:
So your 465 hours included the CM work? If that's the case, you are providing a pretty good value. If you are taking the risks of a general contractor, then you need to charge more, IMHO.

Yes 7% for Cm and design work. The general contractor was a whole different number.

Re: Typical Design Fee

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:11:49 GMT

in the New York area, for custom residential work, lots of detail, I bill by the hour with a total cap of fees at 12% of construction cost. in this area new custom residential const. and heavy renovation costs $200/s.f. and up, cabintry, wood work, site costs not included.

donald mac donald