topic Re: Separate files for model and layouts in Modeling

Separate files for model and layouts

David Collins — Sun, 11 Jun 2006 13:03:58 GMT

The ArchiCAD 10 New Features Guide hints pretty strongly that using one project file for both model and layout information, for anything other than small projects, is asking for trouble. We are advised to keep two separate files for each project, one for the model and another for the drawing layouts. I really like the way Plotmaker has been incorporated into ArchiCAD, but this caveat is a little worrisome.

How small is small? What exactly happens when too much stuff gets loaded into a single file? Do things slow down and start to get squirrely or does the file size just get to be monstrous? If you're not trying to feed a project out over a network, is a large file size that serious a problem?

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Anonymous — Sun, 11 Jun 2006 13:25:48 GMT

My recommendation is a 2 stage approach:

Project specific information should be part of the project's pln/plp file.

So called "Standard Details" should be linked externally. We use a PLP file and store all of our non-changing reusable details in it. Those drawings are then placed in the layout book directly and not placed into the project's pln/plp unless they need to be modified.

This method keeps the project's file size down and since the standard details don't change there is really no benefit in spending the time to place each one into the project file just to place it on a layout. You can also set the external standard detail drawings to manual update and the internal drawings to automatic update. Then you won't have to wait for the unchanging information to be "updated" (oh, the irony).

Separating the layout book from the model info (which is how it works in AC 9 anyway) isn't really all that necessary until you get into very large projects (mid-rise/high-rise/multiple buildings) where teamwork workspace allocation is more complex. At least in my opinion.

It takes longer to update drawings from external sources simply due to the time it takes to open the external file and generate the views. The files sizes in AC 10 are so much smaller that things are sped up quite a bit over the network AND local disks.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Aussie John — Mon, 12 Jun 2006 01:30:57 GMT

I havnt used v10 yet but would be surprised if combining PM and ArchiCAD effected the file size too much as there was a doubling up of information by having a layout file and a CAD file. Im sure it is bigger but by how much only users can tell us. Does the load time of the file get effected much. The way I see it Archicad already saved the View sets in the file and the layout is just a reference to the viewset. I look forward to seeing the results when v10 ships here.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Anonymous — Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:30:19 GMT

Aussie wrote:
I havnt used v10 yet but would be surprised if combining PM and ArchiCAD effected the file size too much as there was a doubling up of information by having a layout file and a CAD file. Im sure it is bigger but by how much only users can tell us.

The file sizes in 10 are substantially smaller. This is due in part to the consolidation of PM and AC (compared to the combined sizes of the AC & PM files), and also due to improvements in the way AC stores its data. I haven't had a chance to do a direct comparison but I will check the sizes before and after once I get to converting some more substantial projects.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Laszlo Nagy — Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:29:39 GMT

Here is some data about comparative files sizes:

http://www.archicadwiki.com/Archicad_10/Project_Migration/File_and_project_sizes?highlight=%28Project%29%7C%28Migration/%29

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Rakela Raul — Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:27:14 GMT

wow, first time i pay attention to this....super !!

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Brad Elliott — Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:21:51 GMT

The way I read that is I assumed once you reach a point where your project is complicated enough that you are linking a significant amount of outside information to your project it is probably more effective to break the layout into it's own file. I assumed that on our multi-building on a site projects with a lot of hot linking they will want to have an independent layout. But we will see.

Also, the one issue that has developed with not integrating the standard details into our project file is that people get spoiled by the auto notation of the documentation and lose track of updating detail marks. On our last big project we started actively trying to bring everything in to the building just to make sure our referencing was taken care of. One little bonus of the combined file is that the referencing now shows up in the model file as well as the layout.

And finally I see compression can be turned off. What are the possible negatives of leaving it on? I am not strapped for hard drive space and losing the Plotmaker overhead will free up a lot more so I can easily turn it off if there is a reason to.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Thomas Holm — Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:59:21 GMT

My migrated and merged project files ( not too big) are constantly less than 30% the size of AC9.pln and PM9.lbk combined.

What worries me a little is that I'm not sure there's an easy way to split a combined model and layout book .pln file into separated plns, should you need it after the project has grown. Maybe someone has read more thoroughly in the docs?

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Anonymous — Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:31:51 GMT

Thomas wrote:
What worries me a little is that I'm not sure there's an easy way to split a combined model and layout book .pln file into separated plns, should you need it after the project has grown. Maybe someone has read more thoroughly in the docs?

I haven't had the need to try it yet, but I imagine that the easiest method would be to import the layouts into a new file and then delete them from the original.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Thomas Holm — Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:44:27 GMT

Yes. But BookSettings 'n all don't follow, or do they?. I think an ExportLayoutBooktoSeparateFile command that really does eliminate all extra work is needed. A ReverseMerge, if you will.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Link — Mon, 12 Jun 2006 22:26:12 GMT

And finally I see compression can be turned off. What are the possible negatives of leaving it on? I am not strapped for hard drive space and losing the Plotmaker overhead will free up a lot more so I can easily turn it off if there is a reason to.

It will just take a little longer to save is all, as it has to save then compress. Just like saving and zipping all in one go. There's also networking and teamworking issues. This is what the New Features Guide says:

If you saved an ArchiCAD Project in zipped form, and you no longer
want to use compression, you may use the Save As command and
uncheck the Compress file checkbox in the Options dialog.
Using this ZIP-technology has the advantage of reducing the sizes of
ArchiCAD Project files to about 1/3 of their original sizes, which can
make the use of 3rd-party compression application unnecessary in
such cases.

Because sizes are smaller, these files will travel faster over the
network, so compression gives the greatest advantage where network
throughput is slow or limited.

Saving these ZIP-compressed files will take about 30% more time,
but save about 70% on disk space and network traffic.
TeamWork Send-and-Receive operations will also benefit from this
new feature, especially when the network is slow. The slower the
network, the greater the expected gains from compression. With very
fast networks, compression may not make an appreciable difference.

Yes. But BookSettings 'n all don't follow, or do they?. I think an ExportLayoutBooktoSeparateFile command that really does eliminate all extra work is needed. A ReverseMerge, if you will.

I haven't tried it either, but it doesn't look like separating a file is going to be a very intuitive task. Such a reversemerge or file split command would be very welcome!

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 01:09:44 GMT

Link wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Yes. But BookSettings 'n all don't follow, or do they?. I think an ExportLayoutBooktoSeparateFile command that really does eliminate all extra work is needed. A ReverseMerge, if you will.
I haven't tried it either, but it doesn't look like separating a file is going to be a very intuitive task. Such a reversemerge or file split command would be very welcome!

The reverse merge/file split function would be good. Perhaps it would work to delete all the model data from a copy of the file and relink to the views in the original.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 02:14:15 GMT

I'm not following the reverse merge terminology, but I've separated and merged layout books in 10 without any issues.

Hopefully I haven't forgotten anything since I'm recalling from memory:

1. Save your Book Info to an xml file (did anyone notice you can do that?)
2. Open your template file
3. Merge the layout book from the original project into your template
4. Load the Book Info into the template file
5. Open Drawing Manager and sort the drawings by source file
6. Relink the drawings that pointed to the original project as required.
7. Save the template file as your new layout book file
8. Keep on truckin'

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Link — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 02:32:49 GMT

Hey Eric

We're trying to figure out how to separate a file back into a single project file and separate layout book, once it gets too big. Or as according to Graphisoft's rather ambiguous terminology - when it is no longer 'small enough'.

Good tip on the layout book info though!

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:09:33 GMT

Maybe I still don't follow you, Link. You lost me with, "separate a file into a single project file". 😉

I was just expanding on what Matthew said in his previous post: separating the model from the layout book.

Are you saying something else? Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Link — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:21:14 GMT

Are you saying something else? Sorry for the confusion.

Me too!

Your steps 1-8 were for merging files right? Do you have similar steps to separate the model from the layout book?

Maybe I'm missing something!

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:37:20 GMT

OK, good we're actually on the same page here. Those steps are to separate the layout book. I'm separating it by merging the layouts into another template file and then deleting the layouts from the model file. We'll call it "Merge-Away" 😉

I like to do it this way because AC doesn't really have a clean way of deleting everything *except* the layouts. Model info can remain tied up in independent details and other not so obvious places, so it's easier to merge the layouts into another file and then delete the layouts from the original. Deleting the layouts is as simple as selecting them and, well...delete.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Link — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:53:06 GMT

It's quite late and I have had a very long day so excuse me for sounding dense, but doesn't that still leave you with the original file that has both the layouts and the model? Do you just merge the model data of that into an empty file?

I clearly need sleep!

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Thomas Holm — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:18:09 GMT

Thansk for the tip, Eric. I just think this processs should be available in AC as a single command.

Also, to answer Link, this seems to leave the original layouts (now redundant) in the original file. Can they be safely deleted?

Eric wrote:
I'm not following the reverse merge terminology, but I've separated and merged layout books in 10 without any issues.

Hopefully I haven't forgotten anything since I'm recalling from memory:

1. Save your Book Info to an xml file (did anyone notice you can do that?)
2. Open your template file
3. Merge the layout book from the original project into your template
4. Load the Book Info into the template file
5. Open Drawing Manager and sort the drawings by source file
6. Relink the drawings that pointed to the original project as required.
7. Save the template file as your new layout book file
8. Keep on truckin'

Re: Separate files for model and layouts

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:15:39 GMT

Thomas wrote:
Thansk for the tip, Eric. I just think this processs should be available in AC as a single command.

Also, to answer Link, this seems to leave the original layouts (now redundant) in the original file. Can they be safely deleted?

Eric wrote:
I'm not following the reverse merge terminology, but I've separated and merged layout books in 10 without any issues.

Hopefully I haven't forgotten anything since I'm recalling from memory:

1. Save your Book Info to an xml file (did anyone notice you can do that?)
2. Open your template file
3. Merge the layout book from the original project into your template
4. Load the Book Info into the template file
5. Open Drawing Manager and sort the drawings by source file
6. Relink the drawings that pointed to the original project as required.
7. Save the template file as your new layout book file
8. Keep on truckin'

It seems that Eric just forgot to include the step of deleting the layouts from the original file. See his more recent post to that effect. I don't think anyone wants delinquent (duplicate) layouts hanging around making trouble and scaring the townsfolk.