topic Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated in Modeling

plotmaker inside AC or separated

Anonymous — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 07:37:52 GMT

I know it is an old debate but searching for "Plotmaker inside Archicad" or plotmaker standalone" I found nothing in the wish subject.
I just went to a Re*it demonstration (another debate, but how fast it is to publish inside Re*it)
I think the answer is: both.
Inside AC for 99% of the projects and standalone for special cases.
I am convinced Plotmaker should work inside AC especially since we have the navigator. Most of the things have to be settled inside the view editor and most of our prints come from a single AC file (plans, sections, elevations, details, what else in most of our work?).
This way, I expect the prints to be refreshed with the editor redefine button and generally speaking to cut the incredible slowness of Plotmaker update.
And for special case with layout of mixed files, why not a standalone PM?

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Anonymous — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:23:00 GMT

I cannot see wasting the time and energy to incorporate PM into the AC application, while also maintaining a stand-alone version. What we have now works fairly well. I can agree that the update speed could be improved, but for the most part I feel that Graphisoft has gotten this one right.

Our files always have at least two projects that are imported to PM; a site and building model. This would mean always using the standalone version.

I actually do not see a great benefit to having PM in archicad. I always seem to have both programs open and just toggle between them when adjustments need to be made.

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Anonymous — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:47:01 GMT

Millard wrote:
... What we have now works fairly well. I can agree that the update speed could be improved, but for the most part I feel that Graphisoft has gotten this one right.

Our files always have at least two projects that are imported to PM; a site and building model. This would mean always using the standalone version.
.

Ok, if your policy is to always have 2 files.
Personally, I rather use modules or X-ref for site data et models
But PM… soooo slow… soooo many bizarre messages… so many AC tools that do not work the same way in PM
I cannot imagine 2 linked programs as optimized as one.

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Rob — Sat, 02 Jul 2005 05:44:39 GMT

I cannot see wasting the time and energy to incorporate PM into the AC application, while also maintaining a stand-alone version.

Well, in fact, there is no wasting time and energy on current PM as the major tools don't work in it! But it would be, if GS would try to double all the code separately for AC and PM. PM should definitely be incorporated into AC somehow as a 'semi-standalone option' that runs FULLY on AC core code, however with its own file format and options to import another drawings from different plns. Sort of having the Start window with options to AC mode, PM mode (undongled) or both (sharing and switching through the navigator within the pln). Let's face it, it's a bit silly to open background AC, then PM, reload all the libraries again without all good AC features and having so 3 applications running (including source file AC) and munching comp resources/speed. It requires a completely new approach for sure. I just wonder how it works with Revit and/or other applications. They have had to address this problem somehow. At the moment it's a bit paranoic solution.
I vote essential.

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Djordje — Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:01:28 GMT

This really belongs in a different forum, so I will move it now.

I am known as a big advocate of the separate PlotMaker - BUT, changing my views a bit recently, as for many reasons the integration should be beneficial:

- same tools/shortcuts
- GDL in title blocks/sheets
- DWG export
- ... add what bothers you

The biggest problem will be "TOLD YOU SO!" from the Revit camp ... and if it is going to be integrated, please let it NOT look like PaperSpace!!! The other will be - if integrated, will it work without the dongle? Somehow I don't see that ...

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Djordje — Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:01:28 GMT

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Rob — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:52:36 GMT

The biggest problem will be "TOLD YOU SO!" from the Revit camp ...

Well, I wouldn't give a ... about this one. If it works and it's more beneficial for the workflow then the current status let's adopt that asap!
I am pretty sure that all major applications in AEC have integrated layout output facilities and they don't tend to break it off the main application. In my opinion they would have done that long time ago if it would have got proven its qualities or any major advantage. I think that current PM has more disadvantages then advantages on its side at the moment.

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Anonymous — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:07:45 GMT

Well Djordje, I don't really care if my wish is not anymore a wish…
We actually work in a fairly big and complex program, having to manage from very large scale to local construction drawings. I also complained about Attribute Manager into PM in another topic. Anyway…
As you moved that to Archicad+ and the good old debate about THE COMPETITOR, I just want to give my opinion; I recently went to a Re*it demonstration, good and less convincing stuff, nothing completely "next BIM generation" as they repeat (and again, and the bigA people around shaking their heads and smiling, world upset down!)
There could be discussions on about 100 topics, I would focus to 2 major issues giving (I thing) the competitor an advantage:
• Speed (sections and layouts, yes, yes, integrated and fast printing solution)
• Price (at least in small European countries)
First point is my major concern, (we already bought AC!) but the 2nd will hurt much more, this is something no artful demonstration can hide.
And two a little less important (probably more related to our architect dreams of design than to real life's practice):
• Modelling ("solid" buiding stuff, not just good looking shapes in 3d)
• Massing
And finally, a point that could be an advantage and a disadvantage, depending of GS:
• Engineers
That now 15 years I hear bigA telling architects they must use the same environment that the engineers use, now with Re*it, they and to reverse the propaganda.
If GS really promote (who else can?) direct links to successful (and why not new and AC based standalone) engineer's solutions, competition will remain interesting.

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

gerd — Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:53:19 GMT

hello,

by accident I read this topic and would like to tell my opinion:

* making layout of plans and working on the building model are totally different. so there are different ways to work and the concept of separate archicad and plotmaker is a good representation of this topic.
* the tree structure in plotmaker is great for this program, but I don't want to get something like this in archicad
* in the plotmaker it is very easy to combine different plans from different pmk files. with pmk files you can fix a version to publish, while working ion the model (if not necessary you can link the plkn directly: its good to have both options)
* it is easy to place two copies of a plan with different coulour tables. I use this sometimes to show the story below (visible areas; nearly the same than ghost story) in buildings with a hall (2 story height) and an office area. it will be difficult to make things like this in one program
* of course I miss some functions in plotmaker (attributmanager, different missing options when working with drawings...), hope they will add this ...
* I hope, graphisoft people will put more layout relevant functions inside plotmaker, for example pdf import (not with 'ole' but with possibility to edit), or some graphical things like possibility to change brightness of picture or color gradient. It will help, if those things are in the plotmaker, not all of it is necessary in archicad

best regards, gerd

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Anonymous — Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:15:09 GMT

Better to update PM with all of our needs as integrate it in to AC.

I compare your wish/question with the question like this: "what's better, to
write a large/complex script for GDL object in one file without MACROS, or
some small/easy files(Main+Macros)?".

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Rob — Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:05:09 GMT

Better to update PM with all of our needs as integrate it in to AC.

and what the hell are you talking about mate? What updating with all of our needs????? as apposed to what?????

I compare your wish/question with the question like this: "what's better, to write a large/complex script for GDL object in one file without MACROS, or some small/easy files(Main+Macros)?".

this is not a really good example. We are talking about doubling the code separately for PM and AC where the second copy (meaning PM one) is stupidly limping behind, so even the doubling the code doesn't do what it should... I just mind you that an application code and programing in C works differently then GDL scripting...

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Anonymous — Mon, 01 Aug 2005 06:48:49 GMT

Z.Bauer wrote:
Better to update PM with all of our needs as integrate it in to AC.

I compare your wish/question with the question like this: "what's better, to
write a large/complex script for GDL object in one file without MACROS, or
some small/easy files(Main+Macros)?".

Frankly, I don't care about theses "conceptual" questions.
We are architects who just wish software that allows us to get accurate printings (speaking about the PM part of AC).
We are experimenting that PM fits our expectations in a fairly large project but with many unexpected manipulations into a separate program (PM) and a big file that update the data very very slowly.
I compare with another software that obviously make it much faster with an integrate layout concept. As an end user I appreciate the performance, I (again) don't care if they use the worst script in the world with the most decayed computer language that exists.

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Rob — Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:42:35 GMT

Don't get me wrong. I do not care about way of programming both AC and PM either. But it's pretty obvious that not having AC advantages in PM (which are programmed in AC core) cripples whole purpose of it.
So, either let's make PM working with all features of AC (the speed problem of drawing updating still remains though) or build PM in AC with its own file format using the very same core. I am not a programmer but looking after one application is (I think) easier then two of them.
Secondly, (as Djordje outlined) there would be a fantastic opportunity to use GDL directly in PM, which would resolve all that crap with the localisation of indexes, issue numbers, section/detail signs and ta-da, ta-da...

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Anonymous — Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:00:02 GMT

Well Rob, as far as my English comprehension goes , it seems that I basically agree with your commentaries.
I quoted another comment that IFAIK try to bring software concept into this debate. Writing some GDL scripts (I did) is one of the tools we have to draw even though I prefer graphics methods.
But talking about software (AC itself) programming is nonsense for me, I am not qualified. I can debate about the result (do we have a good BIM? do we have a good printing solution? etc).
If it's smart and durable, I don't care whatever C-C++-#-&-§ language and software "philosophy" they use to achieve that. I am just an architect who uses computer tools.

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Anonymous — Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:29:34 GMT

So I want to explain my position in this discussion,

Why I do not want agree today the wish to have a single program for both AC & PM?

Because as you can read in our AC-Talk Forum we all have many important wishes relative to AC, they GS carries out for us very slow. We have AC9 today, with great options, they wasn't in earlier versions. But as you also see but not "agree" AC9 has R1,R2,R3, according many problems, bugs, etc.. I think that's because AC isn't so old but is flexible program with big future. "No more R2" motto/device today not yet functions.
That's why I'm not sure that next AC version(AC9.1 or AC10 maybe) with integrated PM will has no very problematic bugs. Others says, I don't want to have problems with print/plot, because I can go round AC's drafting problems/bugs, but don't want to think about "Why I can't print/plot my completed project as I want".
For the future I fully agree the wish to have integrated in AC PM, because I want to have all AC's options in PM & PM's in AC.
In another words I propose GS parallel to start experiments in the integration way, but before sale of full version test it very thorough. GS can release for example alpha/betta versions. So we can test the program too. And only after that, sale full version, because:"I AGREE THE PROGRESS, BUT NOT BUGS"(No more R2)!

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Rob — Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:18:11 GMT

That's why I'm not sure that next AC version(AC9.1 or AC10 maybe) with integrated PM will has no very problematic bugs.

I do understand your cautious approach especially after the experience with AC8 but there is no progress without bugs. I believe that there was a tremendous effort to sustain quality while beta-testing the latest AC9 and risking a few bugs on the way with more flexible and faster outcome is worth that effort, I think.

to Philippe:

I am just an architect who uses computer tools.

So am I, but on the other hand when you use a clutch pencil every day you should know how to push the lead out, I suppose.

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

__archiben — Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:36:30 GMT

Rob wrote:
I believe that there was a tremendous effort to sustain quality while beta-testing the latest AC9 and risking a few bugs on the way with more flexible and faster outcome is worth that effort, I think.

there was, but i suspect that it was the steadily improving code base of 8.1 that leant an inherent stability to 9 and helped it pass the test within the scheduled release date.

if the next release is of a magnitude discussed here, and of a similar feature-rich development as 8 was, i sincerely hope that graphisoft would extend enough time to the alpha, beta and final tests - as well as including the testers in any decision as to whether the product is ready for launch! rob - there are bugs and then there are BUGS-A-GO-GO! in such a scenario as this, i really hope that the money-marketeers and the big bosses have the modesty to listen to feedback and delay the release day if necessary . . . rather than plunging on ahead as they seemed to do with 8. we really don't want to "risk a few bugs" like that again!

to Philippe:
I am just an architect who uses computer tools.
So am I, but on the other hand when you use a clutch pencil every day you should know how to push the lead out, I suppose.

but if the lead 'aint broke, why push it out (? clutching at straws )

~/archiben

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Anonymous — Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:13:45 GMT

Z.Bauer wrote:
:"I AGREE THE PROGRESS, BUT NOT BUGS"(No more R2)!

Calling for "no more bugs" is as useful as calling for "no more tax".
I think they managed quite well the bug detection with the 9. Got a few scratch but it did not really hurt.

to Rob:

So am I, but on the other hand when you use a clutch pencil every day you should know how to push the lead out, I suppose.

obviously, but I still don't care if a sophisticate machine or a simple axe to cut the tree was used to create the pen. (I use wood pens )

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Rob — Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:42:54 GMT

I use wood pens

you mean pencils mate don't you or Swiss technology has another surprise for us...

Re: plotmaker inside AC or separated

Anonymous — Wed, 03 Aug 2005 02:55:31 GMT

Yes integration with engineering- this is and it will be the key of the winner. As we speak Revit is being pitched by a concerted effort of numerous engineering software makers. I am sorry but GS doesn't appear to have much of a choice. My hopes are dwindling.