topic Re: archicad for consulting engineers?? in Modeling

archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:40:52 GMT

Hello,

I am a CAD Manager in a consulting engineering firm (civil,landscape, structural, mechanical, electrical, plumbing). I am doing research into the different BIM/PEN/Virtual Building products on the market.

I am curious if there are any add-ons for archicad to make it useful for the engineering disciplines. I am imagining a time when the entire project will be done this way, coordination will be real time, interferences will be automatically detected, etc.

Currently from what I've found the most inclusive product is Bentley. They've got something for everyone but I'm not positive I like the direction they're taking in the approach towards the Building Model.

Revit is currently working on a structural package and MEP is to follow (can't get a specific date on any of them).

Archicad is a mystery to me.

Any input would be greatly appreciated,

Rick

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:21:42 GMT

PEN?

bill

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:33:56 GMT

It stands for Parametric-ENabled design. I might be double posting but I haven't seen my 1st reply to this and my memory is highly unreliable (can't recall if I hit the submit button)

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:11:28 GMT

rick

interesting topic

will post with some, very biased, views tomorrow when i've had a chance to think about it

bill

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Fri, 20 Aug 2004 02:06:07 GMT

I would like to see a civil, structural, mechanical, electrical, plumbing package for ArchiCAD of my past inquiry was disregarded and after a decades I realized that they do not have the proper resources to integrate a British product they own Cymap.

I generally design my own MEP and Structure out of necessity to make a living and then it is a breeze to coordinate the project. An integrated approach would be a dream as far as collaboration with engineers. I am on MAC but if someone shows me a product on any other platform comparable with ArchiCAD having those capabilities rest assure I will embrace it.

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Scott Davis — Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:04:32 GMT

I am on MAC but if someone shows me a product on any other platform comparable with ArchiCAD having those capabilities rest assure I will embrace it.

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:00:23 GMT

We run a Architectural and Engineering office and have done a great deal of research to get our entire company onto one platform. After several months of evaluation on which platform seemed to work best we came to the conclusion - Split.

We now run Archicad for our architectural department but found it limited for engineering needs so our engineering runs Building Systems. By staying on split platforms, all users got a program that better suits their needs. The key to it all is to make sure your set-up and standards work in translation between the formats.

Any current platform can be made useable for any design discipline - some just have more benefits for some disciplines than others.

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:12:49 GMT

I don't think we will see a one size fits all (or one product line serves all) anytime soon (if ever). I don't even think it is desirable, as it is contrary to the maintenance of diversity and competition in the market place.

The present best practice is (as tprokop says) is to up standards for interoperation according to the specific needs of the firm(s) & project(s) involved.

The situation should improve as standards such as IFC develop and as it becomes easier to create or obtain quality add-ons for the various primary apps.

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:14:51 GMT

tprokop wrote:

We now run Archicad for our architectural department but found it limited for engineering needs so our engineering runs Building Systems.

Currently we use plain AutoCAD with heavy in-house customization to suit our needs for S and MEP and AutoDesk's civil packages for (obviously) our civil department.

My task is to study which product is going to lead the industry in the future. Which Virtual Building or BIM package is the one to back. Ideally we want to team with the developer's and become a beta test site so we can not only stay on top of the technology but help develop it to suit our industry's needs.

This is some fun research, but oh the pressure!!

Thanks for your thoughts, look forward to more....

Rick

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:58:02 GMT

as matthew said, hopefully the future is not in backing one specific solution but in using software that accords with (non-proprietary) standards

i understand that revit will have IFC integration by xmas which should provide the momentum for others to follow suit, for the benefit of both users and the software companies

whilst bentley provide a software solution for pretty much anything you can think of, they seem to have no intent to add IFC support. so they might be ideal in a large, multi-disciplinary, company, but could be sidelined where co-operation with outside consultants is required. as AA said, keeping things in house can make for a highly efficient operation but it's rare for it to be possible

i think archicad and revit's likely success in the bim future is that they have been designed from the ground up as purely architectural solutions, not trying to do everything. autodesk certainly seem to be pushing revit as a stand-alone solution, not a bolt-on to an existing product (unlike adt)

bill

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Djordje — Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:50:41 GMT

"One fits all" is like having only a Lethermann set in your toolbox ... Sometimes you need a Hilti drill, sometimes a plain hammer will solve the problem.

The key in the usability sector is the interoperability, where IAI (IFC) is the clear leader; Graphisoft is the only one of the three leading AEC providers (Big A and Bentley are the other two) that fully supports IFC.

It is only through user's pressure that the software companies will work on interoperability. Market share wise, Bentley can say "we have everything, why would you look elsewhere?" From their point of view, quite true - BUT! - not from the user's point of view.

Proprietory format? Fine, as long as you can collaborate. And no, saving DWGs from ArchiCAD, keeping DWG format a company secret, or keeping one's own format while adding DWG are NOT solutions - they add to the complications, and create potential disaster scenarios.

We should be free to choose our tools; in the olden days, nobody asked you which brand of pencil or rapidograph you used, or on which brand of tracing paper you did your work; it was the output that mattered. It should be so with the digital tools, as for example dumbing the VB ArchiCAD project, or BIM Revit project to mere DWGs or, even worse, DWFs is a crime, only keeping one's domination of the market, not keeping the standard. What standard? The only standard that should be ENFORCED is a open source fully intreoperable standard, based on intelligent objects, not flatland lines.

The bad thng is that maybe our children will work like this; I personally doubt that I will live to see interoperable AEC digital environment. Too much has to change in people and the methods of working, never mind the software - that is mostly there ...

Sorry for the rant 😉

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:42:45 GMT

Mayym what you are doing is called damage controll, shame on you

-----------------------------------

Matthew Lohden Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

I don't think we will see a one size fits all (or one product line serves all) anytime soon (if ever). I don't even think it is desirable, as it is contrary to the maintenance of diversity and competition in the market pla

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Sun, 22 Aug 2004 00:29:48 GMT

It is all about having a decent engineering package to work with and full DWG integration in PM and AC.
Without these we are on a dead end.

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:26:38 GMT

Adalbert wrote:
Mayym what you are doing is called damage controll, shame on you

I accept no shame for expressing my honest opinion. I do not believe I am engaging in damage control as I don't believe there is any damage to control. (Nor am I a representative of Graphisoft, which such an accusation implies.) I have yet to see any single company produce a substantial set of architectural and engineering programs that integrate effectively in a Virtual Building. (Perhaps some great new or improved products have come out that I have been too busy to take heed of - please let me know if this is true.)

DWG interoperability is possible (and improving) now; and, in any case, is only a stopgap measure on the road to the integrated Virtual Building model. I have seen as many problems integrating (using DWG) between firms all using AutoCAD (and Microstation) as I have with multi-platform arrangements.

Certainly there have been some notable examples of CAD integration such as the Mall of America (a very early one) and the Big Dig in Boston (which has grown from primitive beginnings to some very impressive stuff), but these were/are VERY large projects with big budgets and big payoffs for customized integration. I have yet to see (despite many nice demos over the years) an A/E/C integrated building model solution that does not require extensive customization and set-up.

Perhaps Revit (with resources from Autodesk) will be the first to provide such an integrated solution; and perhaps it will even be useful and even successful. (Autodesk has tried and failed to expand beyond their flatland world so often that I believe Revit is their only hope for success in this.) Maybe Graphisoft (not I) will then need to do damage control by scrambling to engage more third parties to develop integrated engineering solutions. Unless this has already happened in the meantime.

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:48:13 GMT

Matthew

Apologies but you are such an ardent GS defender.

GS lost out big time not integrating Cymap in to Archicad,
I guess this is because Cymap is only window based.
I agree with you the resources needed to solve the integration of Engineering may tilt this in favor of Revit.

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:55:23 GMT

If I may tell my story,
I was Bentley product user of MicroStation, Bentley Architectural and Bentley Structural for many years. Was very frustrated by getting the claim of one full solution; never happened and as time passed realized with one company alone it will never work. Ones encountered ArchiCad especially as time passes I am realizing ArchiCad has all the basic capabilities that I need and more (not that I do not need any improvement in tools), specialty by using GDL objects I can accomplish a lot (I am not into GDL programming YET). In conclusion I use specific well written structural analysis software for the final touch. A note, I am not into IFC yet either and using ArchiCad on Mac and the softwares that are not available on Mac I used Virtual PC which works better than Windoz itself! (I was Windoz user for many years, too long.)
Thanks,
Joseph Harouni

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:23:49 GMT

Adalbert wrote:
Matthew

Apologies but you are such an ardent GS defender.

No apology is needed but I accept it as a gracious response from a fellow long time user. I may appear to be an ardent defender since I tend to make my criticisms in a positive fashion. I have also written favorably of various features in speedikon, AllPlan, and even AutoCAD & MicroStation (often to make a point about limitations of or possible improvements to ArchiCAD).

GS lost out big time not integrating Cymap in to Archicad,
I guess this is because Cymap is only window based.
I agree with you the resources needed to solve the integration of Engineering may tilt this in favor of Revit.

I am not familiar with Cymap. What is/was it? PlanToModel is Windows only (AFAIR) as is NavisWorks. We certainly don't want ArchiCAD's interoperability to be limited to cross platform solutions (though I would love to see more AEC products on the Mac). It's not such a big deal for a Mac office to get a PC if it's needed to run one of these programs (that is if Virtual PC won't do it).

It remains to be seen if anyone will produce the all-integrated A/E/C solution or if it will inevitably evolve from a variety of sources relying on common file formats or standards (such as DWG & IFC). Personally I think the latter is more likely and preferable to a single source solution. The winners should be those who learn best to play well together.

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:04:08 GMT

/www.cymap.com is owned by GS

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:14:31 GMT

I have to contradict you because the CODE is driven by energy consideration the design of the envelope has to be CODE conscious. This has to be in the modeling tool otherwise one will lose the cost control. The MECchek software must be part and parcel of the software. The envelope has to give instant feedback of the life cycle cost. This is the intelligence that we are waiting for and the Winner will take it all because will accelerate a rapid migration of users. I do not exclude that more than one software will survive but I am sure that one needs considerably resources to achieve goal

Re: archicad for consulting engineers??

Anonymous — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:33:09 GMT

Oh...

You are talking about MECchek. I thought you were referring to the whole range of engineering disciplines. I agree that it would be very advantageous for all of us (GS included) to have a MECchek add-on that would provide a ready update of code compliance directly from the model. This shouldn't be too hard to do; at least as far as getting a report of values to enter manually. Automatic function would be version 2.0.

I appreciate how much value this would have in the US since I am the MECchek guy in the office here. After working through a renovation/addition project with single glazing (yes I got it to work!) I know how much time there is to be saved.

I have spoken to some people in a position to do something about this. I will have to pursue this further at ACU in Nottingham. I'll be sure to bring the MECchek software with me.