topic Re: Imposible wall. in Modeling

Imposible wall.

Anonymous — Tue, 23 May 2023 13:20:45 GMT

Hi to everyone!

I have a problem trying to generate a special wall. I'm surprised with the new stretch and angle modification of walls in archicad 10, but I need to create a wall with some special shape and with some empty opening shapes. I try to make the wall in sketchup or autocad, like a 3d object, but is very frustrating comparing to archicad walls.

So, the question is: Why is possible to make those interesting shapes and empty openings in a slab but is so difficult to make the same shape in elevation on a wall??? (Considering the stretch and angle modifications)

And the final question: Is there a way of making the wall i'm trying to make without using roof trims, external objects, maxon form?

And the final final question: using any tool, internal or external; which is the easiest way of modeling this wall?

Two images posted of the autocad section and my experiments with walls and slabs in archicad.

Re: Imposible wall.

Anonymous — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:30:23 GMT

Use complex profile and you could do that wall in ArchiCad, sidewall would be harder, but it work making help roofs and use trim to roof command.

Re: Imposible wall.

Anonymous — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:42:51 GMT

All the walls I see in your section drawing are fairly easy to do in ArchiCAD. You have already figured out the sloping one it seems. You can put openings in it like any other wall and there is a setting to make the windows vertical or perpendicular to the wall. The end wall is probably best accomplished with SEOs (I generally prefer this to the trim to roof command now). As Tobias suggests the complex profile wall (or beam) tool can be used to make a more detailed model of the sloping wall.

Re: Imposible wall.

Anonymous — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:50:42 GMT

Matthew wrote:
All the walls I see in your section drawing are fairly easy to do in ArchiCAD. You have already figured out the sloping one it seems. You can put openings in it like any other wall and there is a setting to make the windows vertical or perpendicular to the wall. The end wall is probably best accomplished with SEOs (I generally prefer this to the trim to roof command now). As Tobias suggests the complex profile wall (or beam) tool can be used to make a more detailed model of the sloping wall.

Matthew, I'm interested in SEOs, but i can't realize were the operators come from... or how to make and easy change them... I try to make a polyline and then extrude it, so i can have my new and polished operator, but, OPPS, there is no extrusion command in ArchiCAD... any orientation will be very helpfull!!!

The picture below explains the wall I am tring to make. The gray area is the resultant and desired wall.

Re: Imposible wall.

Link — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 20:31:51 GMT

The only SEO you should require is for the top left X, using a (hidden) roof for the operator. The others should be removed by wall healing and with a custom window.

This should be relatively easy to model - you shouldn't even need to create a complex profile. Just slope the walls, using the pet palette in the 3D window.

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Imposible wall.

Dwight — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 22:27:59 GMT

Einstein wrote:
there is no extrusion command in ArchiCAD

Right. But any shape that you make with a polyline (even unclosed) can be "magic wanded" into a 3D slab or a roof plane. There's your extrusion.

I admire you taking on this intermediate skill challenge, but combining the tilted wall, the SEO and creating forms is quite a plate full all at once....

Re: Imposible wall.

Steve Jepson — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 03:36:59 GMT

Einstein,

How to model something depends on what you intend to do with the model.

Does it need to be anatomically correct or is it just for use in planning or rendering?

You may want to model the steel first, then add the other materials one at a time.

Re: Imposible wall.

Anonymous — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:41:36 GMT

Well, I'm very happy with the resulting wall, i used the Link's method combining slope wall and roof cutting.

The material of the wall is reinforced concrete, nothing more sophisticated, with slabs, walls and beams to "close" the structure.

I have some problems making the interior "empty windows" or perforations in my superwall. It is possible to rotate a window or a empty window in this case? This is important because I want to align the windows to the external shell.

I try to work with the magic wand, but the roofs do not operate and cannot be created with one of the faces in vertical or inverted...

I think that my last chance is to investigate in 3d slabs... A slab can operate vertically, angled, forming a closed shape to use like an substraction operator?

Any proposition will be received!!!!

Re: Imposible wall.

Link — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 22:18:08 GMT

You should take the construction lines of your window from the elevation and copy them to the floor plan. Then magic wand a slab with an ID of 'wallhole' onto those lines. Then save that slab as a window library part and insert it back into your wall. Repeat for each unique window.

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Imposible wall.

genarch — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:03:49 GMT

Link wrote:
The only SEO you should require is for the top left X, using a (hidden) roof for the operator. The others should be removed by wall healing and with a custom window.

This should be relatively easy to model - you shouldn't even need to create a complex profile. Just slope the walls, using the pet palette in the 3D window.

Cheers,
Link.

WHY can't ArchiCAD allow for sloping wall tops?! It'd be so great it you could say one end of the wall is 2' high and the other end is 8' high. Or, define the height of one end of the wall, and then the slope of the top of the wall. This would make creating a wall next to a stair MUCH easier than using roofs and SEO!!!

Re: Imposible wall.

Link — Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:32:11 GMT

That's a question only GS can answer.

I'm sure they'll be here to reply you......... tomorrow!

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Imposible wall.

Ralph Wessel — Sat, 29 Sep 2007 16:39:12 GMT

Einstein wrote:
I have some problems making the interior "empty windows" or perforations in my superwall. It is possible to rotate a window or a empty window in this case? This is important because I want to align the windows to the external shell. [...] Any proposition will be received!!!!

You might consider OBJECTiVE as a solution. The attached image was modelled in about the time it tool me to draw the polygon shape.
If you wanted to use ArchiCAD walls, OBJECTiVE can also help by quickly making custom extrusions which you can rotate and cut in 3D to use for SEO operators at the openings. Take a look at http://www.encina.co.uk/objective.html

Re: Imposible wall.

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:37:20 GMT

The reason "it" can't be done -to have a wall behave like this, has to do with how GS originally wrote the code. They didn't plan on such complexities, and while we USERS see the graphical images and work with such end results, to change the CODE and reclassify something like the code for a wall, means going back 10 years and remaking the whole program.

While it might be time for that at some point, these small requests, vs. the work arounds we've become used to, for such specific and not common uses of the program, make for some cost-prohibitive complete renovations that probably NO one on board at GS not only could convince an investment board to do, but wants to go back to square one to tackle it all over to begin with.

We sometimes want 3d modeling solutions in AC, but remember- maybe more than 99% of the buildings in the WHOLE WORLD never need anything special like this (well, except if we're modeling very crude 3rd world structures- but again that's not a majority, as they don't use architects very often there, let alone computers for remodeling and renovations!)....The wall tools in AC, as they are, are PERFECTLY reasonable for what the software was intended for. Those of us who want more, well, we really are in a select minority, and in the end, if you do a vote and a poll, you've got like maybe 50 users on here to protest or plead for something, a change that goes through someone who reads these things (admins) and then on to management at GS and then winds up on the desk of maybe 2-4 people who would be involved with this, and when asked if it can be done, and they say- give us 6-10 months full pay and long weekends to re-write all the ways the walls work, and yes, we can do it.... and then they factor in how many people will benefit from this new flexibility, and how much it will cost to implement in code... well it's a loosing battle! The people who need these functions, even architects, we only need it once in a blue MOON- those who need it regular use 3dsM or something for MODELING. Why have GS try and be 3DS?

As we get into more complex 3d modeling, changing providers to something more 3d, might be a better route. You CAN make all this stuff even in ancient versions of 3d max and such -even the old free ware 3d modeling apps!

The work arounds in AC require a bit more familiarity with the software, but that's what the forums are for, yeah? Because sometimes we NEED weird walls, to create something artistic and not a square box.

AC isn't a modeling app though- modeling app code would be an absolute nightmare to begin to implement without bugs all OVER the place with the current scripts as they are. Even a box to check for changing the functions in how and when a window or door operation effects something else... it is a lot of seriously complex stuff for the programmers.

Re: Imposible wall.

Djordje — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:11:32 GMT

You can do the slope roof wall today ...

... with custom profile of course.

Only:

- the ref line will be perpendicular to the wall instead of parallel
- your doors and windows will not be placeable

Using objects or meshes, you will also have to resort to workarounds for the openings, mostly SEOs, that will increase the polycount and maybe bog the computer down - not to mention the wrong 2D representation.

So ... until the day that we have those walls, the time proven techniques are:

- cutting off the top with an appropriate roof (wireframed, layer off in all the documentation layers)
- creating the sloped top as a separate editable entity and controlling the changes in 3D
- using a freeform empty opening to punch out the portions of the wall you don't need (for example, crenellations are nicely modeled with empty window)

You will notice that I do not mention SEOs. I am old fashioned enough to always think about the computer load and always use the techniques that burden the machine the least, because the moment that the machine does not respond almost instantly, I am starting to lose billable time. Doing my first ever 3D model on a ZX Spectrum probably also has something to do with it ...

Re: Imposible wall.

Brett Brown — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 01:09:53 GMT

Ralph wrote:
Einstein wrote:
I have some problems making the interior "empty windows" or perforations in my superwall. It is possible to rotate a window or a empty window in this case? This is important because I want to align the windows to the external shell. [...] Any proposition will be received!!!!

You might consider OBJECTiVE as a solution. The attached image was modelled in about the time it tool me to draw the polygon shape.

Ralph, Question, Can Objective do walls with a sloping top, texture horizontal, have a hot spot on the lower end to adjust height up and down in 3D. This would be for a Block Masonry retaining wall to follow the slope of the site. Way to time consuming with roofs as SEO's everywhere. Had a look on your site and could see no movie that showed how you did that example wall. If you wouldn't mind could you do one of your step by steps example. Thanks

Re: Imposible wall.

Ralph Wessel — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 21:41:52 GMT

Brett wrote:
Ralph, Question, Can Objective do walls with a sloping top, texture horizontal, have a hot spot on the lower end to adjust height up and down in 3D.

Yes, OBJECTiVE will do this. As with most tools, there is more than one way to address the problem. This is the first method - the second will follow in the next reply. Referring to the attached image:

1) I've drawn a curved ramped surface with a brick wall along one edge. The wall is a profiled object created with OBJECTIVE. We are seeking to slope the wall to match the ramp incline.
2) I've switched to an elevation view, selected the wall object, and used "OBJECTiVE/Tools/Offset" to raise one end of the profile.
3) The elevation following the "Offset" operation
4) Completed result in 3D. The texture remains horizontal as required, although control over this is not as good as I'd like yet. The next release will improve control over texture direction.

Re: Imposible wall.

Ralph Wessel — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 21:48:31 GMT

Brett wrote:
Ralph, Question, Can Objective do walls with a sloping top, texture horizontal, have a hot spot on the lower end to adjust height up and down in 3D.

Second part of the answer...
Again, referring to the attached image, we are seeking to match the slope of a wall to the ramp incline. The previous reply is the easiest approach, but real walls often have more detail. This example places a coping on the wall and uses an SEO operation to complete the result:

1) Make another profiled object for the coping with OBJECTiVE
2) Place and bend the coping to align with the wall, view in elevation and use the "Offset" tool again to align to the required slope
3) Use an SEO operation to remove the wall above the coping, and view the finished result in 3D

Re: Imposible wall.

Brett Brown — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:13:14 GMT

Thanks for that Ralph, I don't seem to explaining what I need simply.

You have a wall, the top two corners (or just one) have a hot spot on it to adjust that height of that point of the wall up and down to adjust the angle of the top.

Of course it doesn't have to be a wall, it can be anything the looks like a wall, and have a horizontal texture. The same as your first example with a sloping top and not necessarily the angled sides. It has a horizontal texture with a sloping top.

It looks to me that you use something else as a sort of SEO to get the sloping top, so is not any quicker than an AC wall with a roof SEO. Hopefully I am wrong.

Re: Imposible wall.

Ralph Wessel — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 23:45:58 GMT

Brett wrote:
You have a wall, the top two corners (or just one) have a hot spot on it to adjust that height of that point of the wall up and down to adjust the angle of the top.
Of course it doesn't have to be a wall, it can be anything the looks like a wall, and have a horizontal texture. The same as your first example with a sloping top and not necessarily the angled sides. It has a horizontal texture with a sloping top.

I think it's doing exactly what you're asking for, although the perspective of the finished result is probably confusing. I've attached more images to illustrate:

1-2) I've drawn a simple straight 'wall' profile, and tilted it to the required slope - the texture remains horizontal. I could cut the ends and base to straight edges with OBJECTiVE's Split tool too if required.
3-4) This illustrates a 'wall' bent to a curve and sloped upward (as in the previous example). The wall sides retain the same profile (vertical in this case), but the ends splay out because they are perpendicular to the slope.
5-7) If I want the ends vertical, I can use OBJECTiVE's Split tool to cut them to a straight edge (or whatever angle is required). The result is shown in 2 elevations and in 3D.

Brett wrote:
It looks to me that you use something else as a sort of SEO to get the sloping top, so is not any quicker than an AC wall with a roof SEO. Hopefully I am wrong.

It would be a nightmare to make that with a wall and roofs - you would have to replicate a segment of roof many times around the curve, ensuring each segment was elevated by the correct amount from the previous and that the overall slope achieved the required levels.

My method is simply using two profiles created with OBJECTiVE - one is the 'wall' and the other is the wall coping. Both can be bent, sloped, and cut in 3D as required, so making rising curved forms becomes quite straight-forward.

Re: Imposible wall.

Ralph Wessel — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 23:53:07 GMT

Brett wrote:
Of course it doesn't have to be a wall, it can be anything the looks like a wall, and have a horizontal texture. The same as your first example with a sloping top and not necessarily the angled sides. It has a horizontal texture with a sloping top.

Or (as yet another alternative) you could:

1) Draw the required wall elevation
2) Use OBJECTiVE's profile tools to make an elevation profile
3) Bend it to the required curve
4) The finished result in 3D