topic Re: Stacking or complex wall in Modeling

Stacking or complex wall

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 17:04:48 GMT

Is it best to stack differant type walls or use the complex wall tool to get differant wall materials on the elevation of the walls? I am wondering what the differance will be in the data base and the flexibility of the wall after it has been made/built?

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Dwight — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 17:57:13 GMT

This is a complex situation since it affects productivity and editing ease.

How many variations do you expect?

Complex walls are easy to adapt and edit on their own, but:

If you lay down one complex wall, each variation of that wall will require another complex wall profile. If you gather several similar wall profiles, each will need separate editing. This can become tedious and confusing.

If you separate the walls into separate elements, then you must be careful to use separate layers for each type to simplify later selection, since overlapping walls and the height of the plan section cut can make wall elements invisible in plan if they occur above the cut. Be sure to use symbolic representation.

As far as data/quantities, you face a complex bit of clerking no matter what approach you take.

Without seeing your project challenge firsthand, I'd be inclined to solve this with individual complex profiles for each situation, using a line matrix [lines don't show in the section] in each complex profile window to keep track of level changes and such.

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:26:36 GMT

"Dwight" wrote:
This is a complex situation since it affects productivity and editing ease.

How many variations do you expect?

4

I decided to use stacked composite walls, it would be nice if i could select them in elevation for the plan view! I have run into another problem placing windows in the stacked wall means that i have had to stop the upper wall at the window then start the same composite over the top of the window. This is kinda nuts!

Thanks for your help.

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Dwight — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:38:31 GMT

It seems to me, unless i misunderstand, that you have made the wrong decision.

It should be the single complex profile with the different materials contained in each.

With only four variations, i suggest that you use an external view to manage variations within the four complex profiles.

I make an independent view where the four wall sections can be drawn adjacent to one another. You then use the marquee to adjust vertical heights and replace fills with the edited version as the design develops. This is useful in coordinating adjacent, similar complex profiles that must line up.

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 21:19:08 GMT

Thanks, i just felt more comfortable with composites but if i use the profile tool more maybe i will get more comfortable.

Another problem: When i use the line tool and go to select different line the display for line selection runs across my rather ample screen when it just needs to run a display a couple inches long! Is this a setting that i can change?

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Dwight — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 21:27:42 GMT

The complex profile is very powerful and can represent many materials in elevation and perspective [as assigned] to separate fills within the profile.

Composite walls can't do that.

Send a screen shot of your line selection display problem.

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Link — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 00:02:46 GMT

Another good point about using this method is that it uses just one element (eg. a wall). A barrel vault roof uses multiple roofs and the smoother the curve you want, the more roofs need to be used. This means that when the texture is applied to the roofs, they tile themselves and look terrible.

The texture applied to the one complex is generally more accurate. Same with the hatching obviously.

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Anonymous — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 10:28:08 GMT

"The complex profile is very powerful and can represent many materials in elevation and perspective [as assigned] to separate fills within the profile"

Dwight - You're right it is and it can but a major failing is that when an opening is formed in such a wall the material to the reveals does not reflect the elevational treatment.

I have spent a very frustrating few days creating a model where the windows are recessed into a wall and 'span' three materials but the reveal adopts only one of them - if anybody can give me a workaround for this I would be eternally grateful!

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Karl Ottenstein — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 15:08:20 GMT

troakie wrote:
I have spent a very frustrating few days creating a model where the windows are recessed into a wall and 'span' three materials but the reveal adopts only one of them - if anybody can give me a workaround for this I would be eternally grateful!

I can't. Complex profiles provide a HUGE amount of productivity to ArchiCAD users. But, they have the INFURIATING and stupid limitation that the wall (e.g.) ends are assigned a single material (for renders; fill/hatch for line drawings), regardless of the number of skins/etc. It drives me insane...

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Anonymous — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:05:49 GMT

OK i am using the complex profile for a wall. Everything seems to work until i went to place the origin to place my wall reference line. It does not go where i put it on the profile of the wall. In other words the origin placement and the reference line do not match. This drives me crazy!!! Is this normal??

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Karl Ottenstein — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:09:28 GMT

drawing@jbdg wrote:
OK i am using the complex profile for a wall. Everything seems to work until i went to place the origin to place my wall reference line. It does not go where i put it on the profile of the wall. In other words the origin placement and the reference line do not match. This drives me crazy!!! Is this normal??

Make sure that your ref line offset value in the wall settings dialog (or info box) is set to zero (0). And, verify that you placed your profile relative to the true origin, not a temporarily relocated user origin.

Karl

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Link — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:34:40 GMT

Karl wrote:
troakie wrote:
I have spent a very frustrating few days creating a model where the windows are recessed into a wall and 'span' three materials but the reveal adopts only one of them - if anybody can give me a workaround for this I would be eternally grateful!
I can't. Complex profiles provide a HUGE amount of productivity to ArchiCAD users. But, they have the INFURIATING and stupid limitation that the wall (e.g.) ends are assigned a single material (for renders; fill/hatch for line drawings), regardless of the number of skins/etc. It drives me insane...

For doors and windows we can apply the Wall Opening Material to be either the 'Same as Wall Edge' or the 'Same as Wall Side' via the options under the Model panel of the tool's settings. Maybe additional materials could be offered via GDL coding?

The only workaround I can see is to use Solid Element Operations and make sure the target inherits the attributes of the operator. Not the most ideal solution, as you'd probably need multiple elements with multiple materials to use as your operators, but it would get the job done.

Keep in mind that the operator will need to be on a different layer than the target, with a different intersection ID for this to work.

drawing@jbdg wrote:
OK i am using the complex profile for a wall. Everything seems to work until i went to place the origin to place my wall reference line. It does not go where i put it on the profile of the wall. In other words the origin placement and the reference line do not match. This drives me crazy!!! Is this normal??

The reference line of the wall is directly related to the complex profile's local origin. So go back into your Profile's Settings and move all the elements back so they sit on the origin. Don't forget to turn on all your Design Layers, so that you move your drafting, stretch and opening lines too.

The rule is that the fill's shape and orientation will reflect how the resulting profile will look when you cut a section through it and look in the direction from the start of the profile to the end, in the direction you modeled it.

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Dwight — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:45:51 GMT

Kermul wrote:
INFURIATING and stupid limitation that the wall (e.g.) ends are assigned a single material. It drives me insane...

"I hate that Halley's comet.
It makes me sick, i want to vomit."

And just to save everyone's time suspecting that a thin wall can be simply inserted into the sides of the window opening, say....

if you do it the obvious way, by putting a thin wall directly and exactly inside the opening, some clever guy in the basement in Budapest made it so the wallhole disappears the tiny wall, but if the thin wall insert is just a smidgeon [sorry to not know the metric equivalent for our European members - a smidgeometre - i suspect] off, it works.

In the attached examples, the left window edge is a thin wall sitting almost inside the window opening. The right window edge is a thin wall wrapped back to disguise the edge of the thin wall.

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Dwight — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:53:39 GMT

The way to make a wall END represent its material is to wrap the end back. Make a corner exactly the depth of the wall.

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Dwight — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:56:57 GMT

This wrap doesn't show oddly in the plan representation.

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Dwight — Fri, 28 Dec 2007 00:19:42 GMT

And for all sides to work you need to take the reference line back again along the back.

A WOrkaround where you genuinely "work around!!!!"

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 28 Dec 2007 02:29:23 GMT

With all respect, Dwight and Link, you're not "getting it" IMHO...so no general 'workaround' awards from my POV. Yes, not too bad for striped walls, which was the original question.

Sure, stripey extrusions can wrap. But, layered veneers will not display their layers when looked at from the wall end, or the sides of a cut hole. If you have something as simple as a two veneer wall with brick applied to masonry block - the wall end will be one solid material. You cannot get it to show brick and concrete - as either texture or fill.

Solid Element tricks do not work either without painful modeling, since you cannot model a 4' wall as 4', but have to extend it a longer amount so that you can then embed your subtraction elements to use Link's trick. Viable for the two veneer rectangular example I just gave. Not at all viable in a general, complex case...which different materials vertically, horizontally, and with the profile dimensions perhaps changing on the way towards final documents.

Graphisoft themselves give an example of this in the wiki article here:
http://www.archicadwiki.com/TechNotes/Composite_Walls_with_Varying_Skin_Heights?highlight=%28TechNotes/%29%7C%28%E2%80%A2+ArchiCAD+11%29

(link may be too long for ac-talk - may have to cut/paste)

The three OpenGL screenshots at the bottom of that page show a white brick pattern covering the entire wall end. We see some brick (incorrectly assigned) on the plywood surface because the air gap with a complex wall is a real air space, allowing us to see through to the interior surface.

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Stacking or complex wall

Anonymous — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 06:36:10 GMT

Complex profiles still need a fair amount of work. While I appreciate these concerns for high quality wrapping and stuff (and would heartily applaud improvements in this area). How about a simple material override? I find it extremely frustrating to need a multiple trim profiles just to have different paint colors, or creating a special beam profile in florescent chartreuse to call attention to a questionable structural detail.