topic Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int in Modeling

Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int Elev

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:31:40 GMT

Three tools for the same procedure, might it have not been better to create a tag to choose from in the S/E tool panel?

I.E. group with:

elevations
sections
interior elevations

____
Imagine how I will teach this 3 tools to my next group of students in their AC class.

Professor- For elevations you have to use this tool, For sections this one and For IntElev this one.

Student- But aren't these three things the same just with different settings, WHY are they different tools?

Professor- Because GS in their Infinite Wisdom decided that we needed special icons for each

Student- OOOOOOOOOKKKK…, If I make a mistake and I choose the wrong one (because of a copy) is there a button to change it to the other type?

Professor- No, you will need to erase the previous one and create a new one

Student- Why?

Professor- Because GS in their Infinite Wisdom decided that we needed special icons for each

Student- And in how did it work before? Weren't you able to create sections and Interior Elevations?

Professor- It was one tool were a section was called "SECTION", an elevation was called "ELEVATION" and an interior elevation was called "INTERIOR ELEVATION" each with its own marker.

Student- And that procedure does not work anymore?

Professor- Yes it still does

Student- Then, Why create separate icons for what is essentially the same tool?

Professor- Because GS in their Infinite Wisdom decided that we needed special icons for each

Student- Isn't Autodesk the only one that puts new icons for the same commands and calls it an UPGRADE?

Professor- Not anymore…

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

TomWaltz — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:44:21 GMT

I was originally against the idea of splitting them, but I like that you can more easily make their default values more logical for each use, create multiple interior views at the same time, and use Clones to logically organize them in the View Map.

It's not all that illogical since elevations, sections, and interior elevations all show different information in an architectural set of drawings. I think it's more illogical to create elevations and interior elevations with something called the "Section" tool. In teaching users (dozens of them, in fact) a lot of people found that strange.

Now Worksheets vs. Details....

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:59:11 GMT

The Section tool I always called the Section-Elevation tool.

I am not against having separate categories for each, I am proposing that one icon would still be best (more simple) and within that one tool you could choose which type of S/E/IE it will become, thus more flexible. This way a mistake not discovered until too late is easy to change.

I see the 3 icons as if GS decided that we needed one icon for Metal Windows, another for Wood/Plastic, another for Special window and another for Corner Windows

Keep It Simple S (I always forgert what the last S is for…)

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

TomWaltz — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:03:19 GMT

ejrolon wrote:
This way a mistake not discovered until too late is easy to change.

I agree with you there. It's important that related tools like that should allow you some method of converting one viewport to another type. (though if a user creates an elevation instead of a section, I'm not going to feel too bad about their carelessness)

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:07:39 GMT

Tom,

Then I can argue that you voted wrongly since having the ability to change from one to another then means that they are not different tools but different categories, for the same tool.

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

TomWaltz — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:37:42 GMT

Not at all. You can change lines to polylines and polylines to lines. They are different tools for different purposes, but have the ability to change in case the situation changes.

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

Link — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:49:47 GMT

Hey Eduardo

During the beta I pushed to keep them all as one tool pretty hard, but to no avail. Must be a trainer thing hey? I think the whole toolbar could do with a lot of streamlining, combining all line and dimension tools, removing the wall end tool etc. There is nothing here that favorites can't handle.

BTW the last S is for Stupid....

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

Anonymous — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:43:49 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:

Now Worksheets vs. Details....

agree!!

and maybe Drawing vs.Image ?

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:47:28 GMT

Funny (but realistic) post, Eduardo! 🙂

I agree. I believe that GS wanted a clear distinction between default states, and automatic categorization in the Navigator. IMHO, there is really no reason that a single button/tool cannot do this and allow for conversion between categories.

A single button/tool with subcategories/modes could still retain the defaults for each subcategory...and if the user changes a section to an elevation, I don't see why the nav item cannot be automatically moved to the proper place.

Similarly, all of the buttons for the different kinds of line tools annoy me. Why is a circular wall a wall geometry, but a circle is a tool?

My 2 cents,
Karl

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

TomWaltz — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:56:57 GMT

I'd also be happier if sections, Interior elevations, and elevations had different GDL Glob_context values so you could make objects that acted differently in each view (like windows that turned on a structural header construction in sections but not elevations)

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:38:35 GMT

Link wrote:
Hey Eduardo

During the beta I pushed to keep them all as one tool pretty hard, but to no avail. Must be a trainer thing hey? I think the whole toolbar could do with a lot of streamlining, combining all line and dimension tools, removing the wall end tool etc. There is nothing here that favorites can't handle.

If GS wants me to help them convert new users to AC they are responsible to make it easy. The section tool in SketchUP is also used for foor plans and I never see a student complain about it since the basic definition of a section is that it is a cut no matter the direction. AFAIK the Big money come from new users not from existing one so making it difficult does not make sense.

Link wrote:
BTW the last S is for Stupid....

Cheers,
Link.

I knew but I already compared GS to Autodesk and didn't wanted to get banned.

Karl wrote:
…A single button/tool with subcategories/modes could still retain the defaults for each subcategory...and if the user changes a section to an elevation, I don't see why the nav item cannot be automatically moved to the proper place.

What's so difficult about understanding this?
___

GS please keep it simple and keep it flexible. AND whenever possible remember that we work in a Graphic Field and it is easier to understand a diagram than to read thru a list (sun settings in the "NEW and IMPROVED" section, elevation and interior elevation tools. My chosen profession is Architect not Archicad user.

the concept should be

Autodesk = Complex and difficult to use
Graphisoft = Fast, Easy, Flexible, even a Child could use it

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

TomWaltz — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:58:36 GMT

ejrolon wrote:
[My chosen profession is Architect not Archicad user.

Statements like that always make me laugh.

Some things come with the territory. Sales rep, drafter, teacher, renderer, marketer, drawing checker, emailer, typist, spread sheet data entry, and <gasp> CAD user are all things that an architect (or ANY professional) may be expected to do in their life time, even though they are not really "architecture." You're not a union laborer. A littler versatility and adaptability is expected.

I'm not thrilled with every decision GS makes either, but we can either accept it or start learning how to be a user on another software.

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

Laura Yanoviak — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:06:37 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
Sales rep, drafter, teacher, renderer, marketer, drawing checker, emailer, typist, spread sheet data entry, and <gasp> CAD user are all things that an architect (or ANY professional) may be expected to do in their life time, even though they are not really "architecture." You're not a union laborer. A littler versatility and adaptability is expected.

Well put, Tom -- I think I'll add that to my next e-mail-to-staff.

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:12:52 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
Statements like that always make me laugh.

Some things come with the territory. Sales rep, drafter, teacher, renderer, marketer, drawing checker, emailer, typist, spread sheet data entry, and <gasp> CAD user are all things that an architect (or ANY professional) may be expected to do in their life time, even though they are not really "architecture." You're not a union laborer. A littler versatility and adaptability is expected.

I'm not thrilled with every decision GS makes either, but we can either accept it or start learning how to be a user on another software.

Agreed, but my invoices always say:

"… for Architectural services rendered"

not

"For the use of Archicad to prepare the construction documents for the project XYZ"

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

TomWaltz — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:52:14 GMT

ejrolon wrote:
Agreed, but my invoices always say:

"… for Architectural services rendered"

not

"For the use of Archicad to prepare the construction documents for the project XYZ"

True.... nor did they say "unclogging Rapidograph pen for use in architectural services" 😉

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

Eduardo Rolon — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:15:03 GMT

But neither Kohinoor nor Faber Castel made Rapidographs that need 3 different tools to unclog nor caps that behaved differently like the 3x0 cap unlocked the right, the 2x0 unlocked to the left and the 0 pen cap was a pull out.

They all behaved in the same way and if you made a mistake you were able to remove the cap from the wrong one an put it were it belonged. You were not forced to throw it into the trash and buy a new rapidograph.

Simple and Consistent.

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

TomWaltz — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:39:23 GMT

ejrolon wrote:
But neither Kohinoor nor Faber Castel made Rapidographs that need 3 different tools to unclog nor caps that behaved differently like the 3x0 cap unlocked the right, the 2x0 unlocked to the left and the 0 pen cap was a pull out.

They all behaved in the same way and if you made a mistake you were able to remove the cap from the wrong one an put it were it belonged. You were not forced to throw it into the trash and buy a new rapidograph.

Simple and Consistent.

Yeah, it's all fun and games until someone puts the .35 cap on the .50 pen....

The scary thing is that half the people here are probably too young to get the joke!

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

Eduardo Rolon — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:59:01 GMT

Naah, we used to change the point, it really messed people up.

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

Anonymous — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:20:45 GMT

Unclogging pens, that was a nice little break away from the drawing board... those were the days.

I remember back in the "olden" days at my first job I got a new nib for my 0.18 (a staedtler I believe). The 0.18mm was lovely, gold plated, a piece of precision equipment. Had it in my hands for 2 minutes, someone flicked a rubber band at me across the office, dropped the pen, bent the tip, stuffed it.

Re: Three Buttons for One Tool - Sections, Elevations + Int

TomWaltz — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:31:48 GMT

Getting back to topic.... the more I think about it, the more and changing my mind and starting to agree that the section, interior elevation, elevation, and possibly even isometrics/cameras could all be combined into one tool... I think my objection was to it being a "Section" tool. I think it would be better called a Live Model View tool or something to that effect, that lets you create either linework or rendered views from a single view point. This would also allow the "skewed elevations" that I've seen requested for sloping walls and would allow <gasp!> real ceiling plans since you could possible rotate the cut to look upward.