topic Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters in Modeling

the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters...

__archiben — Tue, 23 May 2023 13:25:18 GMT

i hope the screenshot is self-explanatory.

the issue began with the two rebates being formed vertically at the interior wall junctions as shown. however: it is the outside skins that are to blame!

further messing around (several hours. can i send you my invoice graphisoft?) revealed that the walls were not joining in junction arrangements that I had set them to.

the wall reference line should form a continuous line around the exterior of the building because i had carried out an 'intersect' command on them. they should NOT suddenly shoot off into the building along an interior wall if i 'adjust' the internal wall up to it.

in the example below, skin priorities are as follows...

14 - external core
12 - internal core
6 - interior lining
4 - exterior cladding

... which leads back to the original 3D problem: how the hell does an exterior wall skin - with a lower priority than the internal linings - form a rebate in that lining on the other side of the wall?!

(and yes: priorities have been checked, double checked and examined in the finest detail. all walls are set to use the settings of the composite.)

remember this is nothing fancy: it's pretty depressing that after twenty-four(?) years the basic building blocks of archicad - walls - cannot form a simple, everyday junction correctly. don't even get me started on wall/slab/roof junctions...

THIS HAS GOT TO BE ADDRESSED SOON.

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

__archiben — Mon, 16 Oct 2006 04:02:47 GMT

if anyone wants a zipped PLN to have a crack at it, PM me with your e-mail address - it's too big (326kb) to add here . . .

personally, i would love to see GS post the solution back here. anyone over there up to it?

ben

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Aussie John — Mon, 16 Oct 2006 07:35:04 GMT

Best I can do Ben is boost the connecting wall ( with window) skin properties to very high and reducing the plaster of the composite wall to very low. Leaves a line in 2d but gets rid of the rebates. In my view is definitely a bug if the 3d looks different to the 2d.
You obviously failed to sacrifice the office junior and appeased the Gods in Hungary

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

__archiben — Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:12:39 GMT

Aussie wrote:
In my view is definitely a bug if the 3d looks different to the 2d.

thanks john. the whole wall/composite wall junction display is long overdue for an overhaul. sure, it got patched up a bit so that complex profiles could be included without having the villagers torch the castle, but it's still missing so much and should be amongst the top priority features to fix.

cheers
ben

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

__archiben — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 02:39:36 GMT

well. i've fixed it up: but only by changing my working methods: it seems that if the reference line is offset from the wall edge - like to the edge of the core or something sensible like that - then the priorities of the skins jump all the way through the wall . . . not just as far as the reference line.

ugly. bug.

here's another one...

e-mail on the way to GS....
~/archiben

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Aussie John — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 02:42:39 GMT

So many things to fix up you wonder if GS will ever catch up. They obviously are more concerned with the newer version revenue stream. They need to watch their backsides if people decide to migrate to other software.
Lets get 80% of the features up to 99% bug free rather than 99% of the features at 80%

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Anonymous — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:05:13 GMT

Hi Ben i had some problems like yours. I couldn't solve them.

composite junctions

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

SeaGeoff — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:23:51 GMT

I will chime in to add my voice to the chorus calling for real composite junctions in all views, between all compositable elements. Whilst I'm dreaming, the composites themselves should be restructured into assemblies of predefined building materials, each with the ability to be graphically or numerically offset from each other, both across the section or from the edges of the assembly, and have the ability wrap openings and ends, and simulate real solid elements for calculation purposes. Wake me when works.

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Erika Epstein — Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:52:06 GMT

Geoff wrote:
I will chime in to add my voice to the chorus calling for real composite junctions in all views, between all compositable elements. Whilst I'm dreaming, the composites themselves should be restructured into assemblies of predefined building materials, each with the ability to be graphically or numerically offset from each other, both across the section or from the edges of the assembly, and have the ability wrap openings and ends, and simulate real solid elements for calculation purposes. Wake me when works.

Absolutely!!

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Anonymous — Fri, 17 Nov 2006 14:30:59 GMT

Firstly I think its fair to say that composite priorities work most of the time, however they are complicated to use, and not reversible with an undo command, so you can easily spend half an hour sorting out some complex junction. I would like to see some way of setting individual skin priorities either in plan view or within the wall toolbox.

Secondly there are still junctions that skin priorities can never deal with, nor composite walls. Enclosed is a screenshot of one I drew a couple of days ago and had to patch.

My view is that there needs to be the ability of creating a polygon wall with its own patch symbol embedded in it, which can be edited as necessary. As to how this might work I don't know.

I have never entirely grasped wall intersections in Allplan, it has an alternative approach which has its own inherent problems by which composite walls are formed of multiple linked walls. This does allow skins to be intersected individually at the users command, but can cause the program to struggle when junctions are revised. However don't rush out and buy Allplan because virtually everything else is worse than ArchiCAD.

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall - has 10 fixed the

Anonymous — Sat, 18 Nov 2006 03:08:05 GMT

In AC9 since al elements are in the same layer one does not have the option of showing the structural part only in the structural drawing. Has 10 fixed this?

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Anonymous — Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:40:30 GMT

I think the short answer is 'No'

It is a wish that has been around a long time but has yet to be granted.
Check out Re: Diplay Option: Show Core Only

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Anonymous — Sat, 18 Nov 2006 16:37:04 GMT

Andy wrote:
Enclosed is a screenshot of one I drew a couple of days ago and had to patch.

My view is that there needs to be the ability of creating a polygon wall with its own patch symbol embedded in it, which can be edited as necessary. As to how this might work I don't know.

I have long felt that polygon walls need to be able to be composites also. It might not solve your very complex condition, but it would take care of most circumstances I've run into.

Another trick is to use the column tool with a complex profile. That should work as the poly-wall with the built-in patch that you are looking for.

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Anonymous — Sun, 19 Nov 2006 23:18:36 GMT

Thanks Matthew, I will give it a try next time.

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Anonymous — Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:29:57 GMT

As I have posted a decade ago : “ All attributed must be defined at the layer level” . This will solve al problems. The wall’s fill or line should be assignable to a layer different then that of the wall. This may seem ridiculous but this is because the cad softwares have never developed a clear layering of layers \system that could be transferred between systems.

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Anonymous — Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:51:03 GMT

I agree that there needs to be a greater level of sophistication for displaying walls. The obvious example is that plaster needs to be displayed at 1:20 scale, but not always at 1:50. The ability to turn off insulation in cavities would also be useful.

A crude on/off switch to display core only will not always achieve the desired result, as there could always be an eternal lining to the wall.

Layering of the wall is sort of contrary to the ArchiCAD philosophy, but I suppose that, as in modules, the wall master layer could determine if the wall is visible or not, and if skins fills or separator line are assigned to other layers then their visibility would be controlled by that layer's visibility.

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:43:15 GMT

I was thinking that using white pens on white background could be an option for not showing certain skins/fills/skin separation lines of Walls.
You would have to define separate Pen Sets for the different scales.
A skin which does not need to be shown at M 1:100 would have a white pen in the M 1:100 Pen Set, and have a darker pen in Pen Sets for higher scales.

Another idea is to have the ability to have Pen 0 assigned to contour lines/skin separation lines/fill pattern lines. This would really make them invisible. (Having a white would still show and overlap other elemetns on a darker background).

Having the Pen 0 assigned to a line is like having it turned OFF.

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

__archiben — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:49:50 GMT

laszlonagy wrote:
I was thinking that using white pens on white background could be an option for not showing certain skins/fills/skin separation lines of Walls.

it is. but it's not the solution. this seems to have been ignored by graphisoft for as long as it's been necessary to show core-only skins of the walls.

Another idea is to have the ability to have Pen 0 assigned to contour lines/skin separation lines/fill pattern lines. This would really make them invisible. (Having a white would still show and overlap other elemetns on a darker background).

you mean in the 'model view options' settings? why not make each pen be capable of being transparent in the pensets?

bottom line: we need modelled composite skins (which would develop into parametric assemblies over time) so that we can have model view control over them . . .

~/archiben

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:11:42 GMT

~/archiben wrote:
laszlonagy wrote:
I was thinking that using white pens on white background could be an option for not showing certain skins/fills/skin separation lines of Walls.
it is. but it's not the solution. this seems to have been ignored by graphisoft for as long as it's been necessary to show core-only skins of the walls.

Yes, I agree, these are just workarounds.

Another idea is to have the ability to have Pen 0 assigned to contour lines/skin separation lines/fill pattern lines. This would really make them invisible. (Having a white would still show and overlap other elemetns on a darker background).
you mean in the 'model view options' settings? why not make each pen be capable of being transparent in the pensets?

Yes, I meant the Pen Sets.

bottom line: we need modelled composite skins (which would develop into parametric assemblies over time) so that we can have model view control over them . . .

~/archiben

Re: the continuing saga of composite wall clean-up disasters

__archiben — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:17:31 GMT

laszlonagy wrote:
Yes, I meant the Pen Sets.

being able to assign the pens-by-wall-function in the 'model view options' would be better though, no?

besides - you would have to allow each pen to be defined as transparent rather than be able to assign skin/fill/contour lines to the transparent pen . . . or they would always be transparent!

~/archiben