topic Re: Double curvature, ideally solid in Modeling

Double curvature, ideally solid

Ignacio Azpiazu — Fri, 31 Jan 2025 13:44:10 GMT

I need to model these funky precast panels and use them in ArchiCAD. I am told they are not hard to model in Sketchup, but that they will get all messed up when bringing them into ArchiCAD.

So would the C4D add-on be the only way?

Re: Double curvature, ideallly solid

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:49:18 GMT

Hello Ignacio,
Could you model one of these precast panels with the mesh tool
and save it as a library part, and rotate it to the vertical ?
Just a thought.
Peter Devlin

Re: Double curvature, ideallly solid

TomWaltz — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:55:23 GMT

I think Peter is right: model them as a mesh lying down, then save it as an object and stand it up.

Re: Double curvature, ideallly solid

Ignacio Azpiazu — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:57:46 GMT

Yup, that is what I am doing while I try to come up with a better plan. But I suspect it will not look very good with the mesh.

Peter wrote:
Hello Ignacio,
Could you model one of these precast panels with the mesh tool
and save it as a library part, and rotate it to the vertical ?
Just a thought.
Peter Devlin

Re: Double curvature, ideallly solid

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:03:24 GMT

Hello Ignacio,
Why don't you think it will look very good as a mesh ?
Is it because you think it has to have ridges ?
Meshes and MASS commands don't have to have ridges.
Thanks,
Peter Devlin

Re: Double curvature, ideallly solid

Ignacio Azpiazu — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:49:13 GMT

Peter wrote:
Why don't you think it will look very good as a mesh ?

The geometry of the thing is freaking impossible, I just spent 1.5 h on it. Either I spend two days ArchiCAD-drafting the descriptive geometry exercise with a bunch of auxiliary planes on the sort-of-paraboloid-like faces and then trace the resulting contour lines with the mesh, or I dumb it down and it will look clumsy.

Re: Double curvature, ideallly solid

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 02:10:20 GMT

Hello Ignacio,
Hmm... I did not know it was so complicated.
Sorry for the suggestion.
Peter Devlin

Re: Double curvature, ideallly solid

Richard Morrison — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 02:46:10 GMT

Do you have ArchiForma? There are some surface tools that might be able to do the job.

Re: Double curvature, ideallly solid

Ignacio Azpiazu — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 04:18:12 GMT

Peter wrote:
Hmm... I did not know it was so complicated.
Sorry for the suggestion.

Thanks for the suggestion! I would not have tried so hard had it not been for the suggestion, at least not at the start. Now I know that if I go the way of the mesh I should aim for some approximate resemblance only.

Re: Double curvature, ideally solid

Aussie John — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:22:37 GMT

One thing for sure is Antoni Gaudí never used ArchiCAD

Re: Double curvature, ideally solid

David Collins — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 05:34:08 GMT

Ignacio wrote:
I need to model these funky precast panels

The mesh seemed to me like the best way to get at this, but I can see how nasty it would be to work out all the various contours elevations.

You might have better luck with an SEO approach. It seems like you could subtract the curving surface with an arched cylinder of some sort.

Of course, you have to model the cylinder somehow. Archiforma again or TUBE in GDL.

Re: Double curvature, ideally solid

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:34:22 GMT

Interesting problem there Ignacio. I have to ask a few questions though.

Are you working with any technical drawings (CAD or otherwise) that contain the technical data specifically of the curvatures and elevations of the Windows?

Because if that is the case then I really don't see why you wouldn't be able to do it in ArchiCAD using a combination of the mesh tool, SEO, and profile manager.

And the second thing is; 15 hours????? IMHO there must have been something you were doing wrong or overly complicated.

Normally I would hash out something curvlinear and freeform/organic like this in Rhino (since it's faster and more logical for me than Maxonform)and then import it into AC using either Maxonform, Zoom GDL or the 3ds import plugin ( assuming it's not too heavy polygon-wise. But if I were forced to make it completely in ArchiCAD using the basic tools, I would hammer out that bad boy using the aforementioned tools like so.

(bearing in mind that I'm modelling this completely fromthe single image you provided and trying to complete it as quickly as possible; hence the low resolution curves/surfaces and some of the inaccuracies that may be apparent)

Starting with the mesh tool and using 2 Elevation (or Section) views, 4 primary contour curves.......
(click on images for larger views)

Re: Double curvature, ideally solid

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:37:19 GMT

......and then using the elevations as mentioned, to check the curvature and combined with profile manager for additional profiles as shown with the fill in the elevation window in the lower left below. The other elevation window is the completed compilation.

As usual click on the iamge for a larger view.....

Re: Double curvature, ideally solid

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:39:13 GMT

.....after a few more tweaks of the mesh and some SEO subtractions here and there, the final object is saved as a window as shown in the final window object tool below. And then just select it and place in the wall as required......

Re: Double curvature, ideally solid

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:47:27 GMT

........final compilation of created windows in wall shown in the 3D perspective window. As I mentioned earlier, I did it hurriedly and with few contour curves hence the low resolution mesh

( which I know I can probably change in the GDL 3D script definition, but didn't want to because it was already dragging and slow as it was in the 3D window; Note to Graphisoft - ArchiCAD NEEDs some form of geometry instancing or referencing for heavy-poly objects, and especially library objects, to allow for more complex modelling in future versions. ASAP. like yesterday; no seriously, this is a feature that is like 2-3 versions long way way overdue).

also, I noticed that when one creates an object using the mesh tool and then saves it as a library part or object, it looses it's Automatic smoothing of ridges in the 3D window as in the native mesh tool/objects. Why is this? It's not too much of a biggie except when you have to export that model or render it using a 3rd patry plugin like the Maxwell plugin where the smoothing is completely lost.....

Re: Double curvature, ideally solid

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:49:57 GMT

......which is why I then exported it into 3ds MAX which has a smoothing modifier to allow one to re-smooth imported objects. As shown in the modifier stack below...... (C4D probably has a similar function for its users as well, and perhaps Artlantis as well.)

Re: Double curvature, ideally solid

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:00:43 GMT

.......for a final 35min image render (I' not certain if you were after a visualization or documentation solution when you started this post Ignacio so I took it all the way) using Vray with a pre-determined settings. I could probably tweak it a bit more, but this was largely for demonstration purposes.

As I have mentioned quite a few times, this is a very rough draft from a low-resolution model ( few curvature) hence the reason you can still see some facetting even after smoothing in MAX. I'm pretty sure that with a bit more time, more tweaking, and oh yeah, more accurate technical information, i could have produced a more spot-on window object. But like I said before, it all depends on what you`re aiming for. Visualisations options and programs typically offer solutions to ArchiCAD's weaknesses vis-a-vis accurately handling curving surfaces, and smooth handling of poly-heavy scenes and objects (such as with smoothing, instancing and proxies in MAX).

But if you were interested in creating the window for documentation purposes solely, there are also work-arounds for those shortcomings as well as long as you have all the technical information you need for an accurate representation. Personally as I mentioned early I would have done the whole thing quickly easily and more accurately using Rhinoceros. But a total of 2 or so hours taken for the whole spiel (including the render) still isn't that bad for ArchiCAD's native toolset as long as you plan ahead and smartly employ the various tools at your disposal.

Re: Double curvature, ideally solid

TomWaltz — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:11:55 GMT

Bricklyne wrote:
........final compilation of created windows in wall shown in the 3D perspective window. As I mentioned earlier, I did it hurriedly and with few contour curves hence the low resolution mesh

( which I know I can probably change in the GDL 3D script definition, but didn't want to because it was already dragging and slow as it was in the 3D window; Note to Graphisoft - ArchiCAD NEEDs some form of geometry instancing or referencing for heavy-poly objects, and especially library objects, to allow for more complex modelling in future versions. ASAP. like yesterday; no seriously, this is a feature that is like 2-3 versions long way way overdue).

also, I noticed that when one creates an object using the mesh tool and then saves it as a library part or object, it looses it's Automatic smoothing of ridges in the 3D window as in the native mesh tool/objects. Why is this? It's not too much of a biggie except when you have to export that model or render it using a 3rd patry plugin like the Maxwell plugin where the smoothing is completely lost.....

You're a Justin Timberlake fan, huh? (You can see it on the screen capture) 😉

Re: Double curvature, ideally solid

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:15:32 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
Bricklyne wrote:
........final compilation of created windows in wall shown in the 3D perspective window. As I mentioned earlier, I did it hurriedly and with few contour curves hence the low resolution mesh

( which I know I can probably change in the GDL 3D script definition, but didn't want to because it was already dragging and slow as it was in the 3D window; Note to Graphisoft - ArchiCAD NEEDs some form of geometry instancing or referencing for heavy-poly objects, and especially library objects, to allow for more complex modelling in future versions. ASAP. like yesterday; no seriously, this is a feature that is like 2-3 versions long way way overdue).

also, I noticed that when one creates an object using the mesh tool and then saves it as a library part or object, it looses it's Automatic smoothing of ridges in the 3D window as in the native mesh tool/objects. Why is this? It's not too much of a biggie except when you have to export that model or render it using a 3rd patry plugin like the Maxwell plugin where the smoothing is completely lost.....
You're a Justin Timberlake fan, huh? (You can see it on the screen capture) 😉

.......not particularly. I guess it just happened to be the song playing on the internet radio station (something from Shoutcast.com - I forget which station exactly) at the time I was doing the screen capture. (Actually I wasn't even listening at the time as I had it turned down - but it's good to know)

Re: Double curvature, ideally solid

Ignacio Azpiazu — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:44:59 GMT

Bricklyne wrote:
\And the second thing is; 15 hours?????

It was *1.5* hours for some of the basic geometry, and realising that there was no way I was going to want to figure out and ArchiCAD-draft the projections of the paraboloids and tori and whatever in order to produce true contour lines.

(The construction drawings include overall dimensions, only some radiuses in a single vertical section and a bunch of curves with radii annotated 'to be approved by the architect'. The architect wasn't aware that those are not circumference arcs.)

It took me about 5 h to come up with some sort of believable mesh based on 6 contour lines which works on distant views and fails on exterior closeups because I can't have some of the mesh contours as hard edges and some as soft, and because it is hard to produce smooth curves (that is, avoid discontinuous variations in slope) fudging a bunch of contour lines. When I first open a 3D window it takes like 5 minutes to generate the first exterior view already (it goes fast after that), so I'll skip solid element operations on this one. I don't have the picture to attach now, which is good because one should never look at ugly things.

When I am back in the mood I'll fudge in some profile for the hard edge and when I need them I'll fudge the 2D views. This is the first time in like 7 years that I need true 'freeform' modeling.