topic Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager in Modeling

Structural steel sections & profile manager

Anonymous — Tue, 23 May 2023 15:06:46 GMT

Assuming that I'd get a chance to test ArchiCAD in a project... (Been only looking at the demo for a few hours and it looks quite appealing, I must say.)

How does one - in real world - (i) create and (ii) manage even a modest selection of steel sections? Is there something in the profile manager I don't get?

I mean: if I have the standard hot rolled sections from channels to IPE & HE A/B/C, stock sizes of RHS, SHS and RHS etc., is there an efficient way to store & select sizes? Can the profile be a parametric object?

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

TomWaltz — Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:18:07 GMT

You don't. The steel sections are built into the Object library already.

The "beam" and "column" tools are really not effective for steel shapes. They are better for structural wrapping (drywall, fireproofing, etc) or for trimwork.

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Anonymous — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:23:31 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
You don't. The steel sections are built into the Object library already.

I've noticed. OK - I know very little about ArchiCAD, this may be perfectly obvious to everyone else but me:

How do I make the steel section beam Library Object to be in an angle (vertically) and have its ends vertical as they would be with the Beam Tool?

In addition, how do I make it default that an Object Library Beam goes into IF-class beams? The object I'm looking at has no IF-class whatsoever ("Undefined").

---

I'm not here to start another argument, but comments like "you don't" are simply annoying. A defence mechanism for fundamental flaws in one's religion? (Right, I did it again... bugger...)

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

TomWaltz — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 12:37:58 GMT

Petri wrote:
I've noticed. OK - I know very little about ArchiCAD, this may be perfectly obvious to everyone else but me:

How do I make the steel section beam Library Object to be in an angle (vertically) and have its ends vertical as they would be with the Beam Tool?

In addition, how do I make it default that an Object Library Beam goes into IF-class beams? The object I'm looking at has no IF-class whatsoever ("Undefined").

---

I'm not here to start another argument, but comments like "you don't" are simply annoying. A defence mechanism for fundamental flaws in one's religion? (Right, I did it again... bugger...)

I was just about to answer your question. They are all easy tasks... until I saw that little comment. I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or caustic at all. I was just answering your original question.

Maybe you can find someone else to help who will be less annoying to you.

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Anonymous — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:07:05 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:

Maybe you can find someone else to help who will be less annoying to you.

I don't think so. I've established that ArchiCAD cannot do certain things that are essential to my work and that the Defenders of Faith will fiercely attack anyone who questions the doctrine.

Never mind. I'll get the job done with software that does not require a membership of a Church and adherence to its arcane and ridiculous rituals.

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

TomWaltz — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:14:12 GMT

Right... you can't figure it out, so it can't be done... you don't like the way someone answered your question (and use a software that does not work the way your old one did), so we're a cult...

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Djordje — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:05:47 GMT

Petri wrote:
TomWaltz wrote:

Maybe you can find someone else to help who will be less annoying to you.
I don't think so. I've established that ArchiCAD cannot do certain things that are essential to my work and that the Defenders of Faith will fiercely attack anyone who questions the doctrine.

Never mind. I'll get the job done with software that does not require a membership of a Church and adherence to its arcane and ridiculous rituals.

Hmmmmm ...

You should understand that you don't know everything. The fact that someone wants to tell you how something is done in a certain environment is not preaching. It is pure help.

As long as you are happy, get the job done. Or not. But, never blame the tool. Most of the software usage problems are between the chair and the keyboard. No software can do anything. It is us who know - or not - how to do it using a certain software. It is also us who make the mistake of expecting the software we know less or not at all to work as the one we know. Road to hell.

Just look into the parameters of the steel beam, and it will be obvious. The end cutting planes angles are pretty obvious, even if you refuse to learn.

If you want to change one library part to another, pick up its properties by ALT click, open the Library manager, transfer the parameters by CTRL ALT click on the preview thumbnail in the library folder, change to that library part.

Does not hurt at all. And, it is no shame not to know anything - one should be ashamed of not looking for knowledge.

Off the soapbox ...

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Anonymous — Wed, 08 Aug 2007 10:14:13 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
Right... you can't figure it out, so it can't be done... you don't like the way someone answered your question (and use a software that does not work the way your old one did), so we're a cult...

It is symptomatic to a cult that "you don't" and "you do" in one.

But AFAK, never mind indeed. Referring to Djorde's post, I think I made a serious error in downloading the Finnish version of ArchiCAD. Not only have the good M.A.D.-men & -women invented new words in the Finnish language (which is, mind you, theoretically quite OK), they have not translated the help system!

Furthermore, I'm in Demo mode. The said M.A.D.-men & -women do not know how to activate the trial mode. There may be features and functions that are classified as "copy" (not doable in Demo mode.)

Despite & nevertheless, ArchiCAD seems to offer quite a lot of things my old software doesn't. In a very limited timeframe I have to assess the usefulness (both for myself and the client) of ArchiCAD. I need to convince myself that the additional capabilities are worth more than the capabilities I lose. In this process, I have absolutely no use for comments that require subordination to The Way of ArchiCAD and donning a turmeric-yellow robe & showing respect to The Guru. I just need to know if the program can do things that are essential.

Right. Where am I? Kill process DIATRIBE...

Profile Manager:

Capture element’s profile: If a Wall/Column/Beam element is selected in the active model window, click this button to capture the element in the Profile Editor window as a new profile element.

"Capture" looked very promising, but was disabled. Obviously, as I finally realised, not because of the Demo mode, but because of the concept. In demo mode, I cannot establish whether I can paste something in the Profile Editor window. If I can, I think I'll manage (not in an ideal fashion, but nevertheless).

Regardless, would it be too difficult (or against the Doctrine - here I go again!) to enable a selected polygon to be captured? Better still, the "shape" of an object.

What is the shape! Maybe the fill, maybe whatever is defined as "something". It's 15 years since I did GDL-programming, but surely there is a mechanism in GDL for structuring the 2D-component?

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Anonymous — Wed, 08 Aug 2007 10:19:20 GMT

Just look into the parameters of the steel beam, and it will be obvious. The end cutting planes angles are pretty obvious, even if you refuse to learn.

Thank you very much for your encouraging and ever-so-positive attitude! The other patronizing guy calls himself Guru, so you must be either Buddha or Vishnu.

No, they are not obvious. I'm sure they are obvious to the Initiated & Blessed, but not to us Pagans.

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Djordje — Fri, 10 Aug 2007 05:50:05 GMT

Petri wrote:
Thank you very much for your encouraging and ever-so-positive attitude! The other patronizing guy calls himself Guru, so you must be either Buddha or Vishnu.

No, they are not obvious. I'm sure they are obvious to the Initiated & Blessed, but not to us Pagans.

At the cost of endangering my life, I will reveal the secret of initiation:

Sit for an hour with someone who knows Archicad. Don't try to decipher everything by yourself. Preferably your dealer/reseller, as he has an interest in selling the software to your company, and has to put up with your rants and overall anger.

Trust me, I know your anger - it sprouts from not understanding what's happening and not asking for help. I felt it in 1994, with a small difference of having nobody to ask. When I finally found somebody, I did not react as you did, but listened. Holding your ground is well and good, being unreasonable and insulting people is not.

Now if you'll excuse me, even deities can't escape the mobs, gotta hide ...

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Anonymous — Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:48:58 GMT

Djordje wrote:

At the cost of endangering my life, I will reveal the secret of initiation:

Sit for an hour with someone who knows Archicad.

I used to know ArchiCAD. I implemented it into a number of architectural firms. I wrote tens of GDL objects. I even was supposed to be the national tech support of an ArchiCAD distributor, but because he thought bs was enough for the handful of users, this did not amount to a hill of beans.

Whatever, I bailed out from the ArchiCAD business when Graphisoft appointed another, even worse, distributor in the country in question.

Right. It was over 15 years ago. I was, however, "initiated" 20 years ago: in a small Apple dealership in another country, they had a demo of something called ArchiCAD, running off a diskette in a Mac 512. That demo confirmed my theories. Please do not tell me I have been wrong for all these years.

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Anonymous — Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:00:44 GMT

Right. I was wrong, at least as comes to objects using "Beam" option. (Not Beam object.) In one of only 20 or so obscure dialogs, with incomprehensible and well-hidden options, you can indeed emulate the behaviour of a Beam. Visually.

IFC is still "Undefined" and does not seem to be able to be "defined".

In the MAD Finnish parlance, a steel beam is internally classified as a "spatial accessory". ("AR 133 Tilavaruste"). Fancy that. Useless & pointless.

Other than for doing useful work or getting help from users, ArchiCAD seems to be most impressive...

(OK. I'll go and buy a yellow robe.)

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Anonymous — Sun, 12 Aug 2007 09:27:18 GMT

This is confusing.

In the "Tree View" of the IFC-menu, the said objects appear to be correctly classified. In the "Edit Object" -dialog's IFC-section they are "Undefined".

I guess have to assume that they are OK in export! The (perceived?) main problem has therefore been solved.

I still can't get object-columns to be raked, but even I don't normally have things like that. The Profile Manager surely can handle such exceptional situations.

Overall I'm impressed!

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

__archiben — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:45:42 GMT

Petri wrote:
I still can't get object-columns to be raked, but even I don't normally have things like that. The Profile Manager surely can handle such exceptional situations.

at what angle does a column become a beam i wonder?

regardless - for anything other than vertical, you can use a 'column-profile beam' object and incline it . . .

glad you're chilling a bit and finding out what archicad can do!

~/archiben

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Anonymous — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 06:56:05 GMT

~/archiben wrote:

at what angle does a column become a beam i wonder?

regardless - for anything other than vertical, you can use a 'column-profile beam' object and incline it . . .

Good points. The latter would be quite acceptable (maybe slightly confusing in its own way) if I only knew how to apply an arbitrary IF-class.

Chilling? Not sure yet. I'm trying to, I'm trying to!

It's just that the beam & column objects and tools are basically exactly what I need and have wanted.

(I have sort-of-acceptable DYI-objects for these purposes in VectorWorks, but far from ideal as they were written in a hurry for a project, then modified for another one and so on. The column especially is clunky while the beam actually has certain superior features - among inferior ones.)

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

__archiben — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:11:02 GMT

Petri wrote:
... if I only knew how to apply an arbitrary IF-class.

GDL objects already belong to an IF class based on their subtype. if i'm reading the manual correctly, they are automatically assigned that class on export . . ?

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

__archiben — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:14:06 GMT

and a quick check of a universal column subtype reveals it to be in the Model Element>Building Element>Column subtype . . . just like a the 'real' column tool columns . . .

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

__archiben — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:21:03 GMT

make a quick steel/column object model and export as IFC to check once and for all . . . ? there are several free IFC 'viewer' applications . . .

i think it's a case of IFC being integrated at such a low level that it just works. you're over-complicating the process by going to look for it! and jumping up and down abusing the power users trying help isn't the best way of solving the problem either, eh?! 😉

although - it would be nice if the IF class of an objects subtype was revealed in the object's tool dialogue IFC pane . . .

hope it works out . . .
~/archiben

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:49:59 GMT

~/archiben wrote:
make a quick steel/column object model and export as IFC to check once and for all . . . ?

I surely would if I only could. The demo mode does not allow exporting.

Anyway, while in 99% of cases, the "built-in" IFC-assignments are fine, there still should be a mechanism for arbitrary classification. A beam used as a raked column, a wall used as a beam or a balustrade and so on.

Mind you, this is very easy in VectorWorks... (No, I don't want to discuss the matter here. Suffice to say, I obviously again have to decide between (a) a very high level of flexibility and then make do without some important features and (b) a very high level of functionality, with little, if any, flexibility.)

and jumping up and down abusing the power users trying help isn't the best way of solving the problem either, eh?

No, but neither is it the best way to entice members to the Cult to tell a prospective new devotee that the Scriptures say "in our church you don't do what you need to do, only what you are told to do". Even if you call yourself a Guru. (Usually people who call themselves gurus are anything but.)

it would be nice if the IF class of an objects subtype was revealed in the object's tool dialogue IFC pane

Yes. One wonders what's it for... You don't see the IF class of some objects, you can't change it for any. What's the point, what's the b*dy point, as Basil Fawlty would once again say.

EDIT

About the Cult of ArchiCAD:

Djordje wrote:
Now if you'll excuse me, even deities can't escape the mobs, gotta hide ...

Well, I'm not really sure if I'd enjoy this Jim Jones -style in the long run.

For all devoted users of ArchiCAD, I'd recommend Kenzaburo Oe's (Nobel Prize in Literature 1994) novel "Somersault". You'll find both Djordje and Tom Waltz there.

EDIT 2
No doubt, there is also a Cult of VectorWorks, a Cult of AutoCAD, a Cult of Revit and a Cult of Whatever-You-Use. Not to mention cults of Macintosh, Windows, Linux or Derwent Colour Pencils.

Re: Structural steel sections & profile manager

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 11:38:35 GMT

~/archiben wrote:
at what angle does a column become a beam i wonder?

I don't know. In reality, a beam cannot be used as a column.

Not because of IFC, but because of the user interface.

Well, the latter may change in my perception when I get used to the robe of Hare ArchiCAD and prostrate myself at the feet of The Guru. (Not likely.)

OK. In ArchiCAD you simply cannot have raked columns that would be translated as IFC-columns. Moving to the next Crucial, Essential and Paramount Issue in our next exciting episode in the chilling serial What ArchiCAD Cannot Do.