topic about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities in Modeling

about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Anonymous — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:36:06 GMT

Hi i just have saw the videos about new archicad 12 version , but i would like to know if there is something new improvements about modeling tools and rendering capabilities , along the new features included ,or the rendering and modeling tools capabilites remains the same ,? plk

thanks

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

stefan — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:17:56 GMT

3djunior wrote:
Hi i just have saw the videos about new archicad 12 version , but i would like to know if there is something new improvements about modeling tools and rendering capabilities , along the new features included ,or the rendering and modeling tools capabilites remains the same ,? plk

thanks

If you consider the Curtain object as modeling, that is new.

I have not seen differences with rendering (in fact, the old bugs from LightWorks that I mentioned are still there).

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Anonymous — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:09:01 GMT

yes the curtain wall is a new interesting feature on modeling , i think archicad has moved more from design capabilities to institutional standards , as an architect designer , i think archicad need more options on the design free form shapes , more now , because the only one way to do this , MAXONFORM , has been discontinued

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

stefan — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:26:09 GMT

3djunior wrote:
yes the curtain wall is a new interesting feature on modeling , i think archicad has moved more from design capabilities to institutional standards , as an architect designer , i think archicad need more options on the design free form shapes , more now , because the only one way to do this , MAXONFORM , has been discontinued

It is suggested to use Cinema4D instead of MaxonForm. The plugins seem to be further developed (geometry from Cinema4D into ArchiCAD as GDL object and geometry from ArchiCAD into Cinema4D for visualization), but the cut down MaxonForm was a one-time only applications, so it seems.

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Anonymous — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:48:39 GMT

whilst cinema4d is a great program in its own right... it seems ludicrous in this day and age that a CAD package like archiCAD does not have better modelling + rendering capabilities

seems that the "base" package can do not much more than rectilinear buildings

a shame... and a missed opportunity

it would seem that the main development focus is in enhancing the documentation tools at the expense of modelling/ rendering (and even those seem to be lagging behind other applications.... or.. at best... poorly implemented)

all in all... some nice features in v12... but to my mind... disappointing overall

yukioMishima

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Anonymous — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:33:35 GMT

yes i agree with you , but graphisoft has to be in mind to add this modelling
capabilities ,if it is posible in the next archicad versions , as i know there is a software in the USA market , wich offer a great modeling options to design tall buildings , i think is from microstation , , i really dont remember now . and i dont have tested only i saw an advertisement in architectural record magazine

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Anonymous — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:41:03 GMT

and your rigth Stefan i have to update from maxon to C4D , but iam a little worried about if i could run both the C4D along artlantisR that iam using by now , i have an IMAC G5 ,,,2,1 GHZ power PC G5 ,,2.5 GB ram memory

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:13:28 GMT

stefan wrote:
3djunior wrote:
yes the curtain wall is a new interesting feature on modeling , i think archicad has moved more from design capabilities to institutional standards , as an architect designer , i think archicad need more options on the design free form shapes , more now , because the only one way to do this , MAXONFORM , has been discontinued
It is suggested to use Cinema4D instead of MaxonForm. The plugins seem to be further developed (geometry from Cinema4D into ArchiCAD as GDL object and geometry from ArchiCAD into Cinema4D for visualization), but the cut down MaxonForm was a one-time only applications, so it seems.

......not that I'm blaming you or any of the other betatesters for this, but for Graphisoft's part that's just plain ridiculous.

It was not more than 2 or 3 years ago (shortly after Maxonform was released and people were wondering if this was to be GS's strategy for dealing with the development of modeling tools) that one of their own developers on this very forum stated that, Maxonform, or rather the presence of Maxonform was not to be taken as a sign that they were not interested in developing or improving ArchiCAD's core modeling tools, and in fact his words were something to the effect that Maxonform is not a part of Graphisoft's long-term plans and strategies for the modeling tools development.

I wish I could find that exact post - one of the few times they used to ever bother to responding to user posts questions and inquiries; I'll try to see if I can find it, but I distinctly remember it, as being an indicator that it was not necessary to invest in purchasing or learning Maxonform over the long term, if one didn't need to since GS seemed inclined to bring the level and power of AC's modeling tool-set to the level, or rather, close to the level of Maxonform in terms of versatility and robustness. In fact this perception, for lack of further clarification from GS themselves subsequently seemed to be supported by their ceasing support for further Maxonform development last year ( a plugin, which I must say, neither they nor Maxon seemed interested in developing even as it remained deeply rooted in C4D's antiquated v9.1 engine even as C4D got upgraded to v9.5 and v10 and v10.5 last year) as most people anticipated, or rather hoped for considerable if not vast improvements in AC's modeling tools in v12 and possibly 13, following Version 11's poor improvements in this area.

And yet here we are after the announcement of v12 and the company line is a suggestion to use Cinema4D instead of Maxonform? Again I say, ridiculous!

I for one don't like C4D's interface, it's GUI or it's work-flow. It's a program that was developed for product developers, character modelers and animators and consequently the logic by which you perform different functions in it in the sense of modeling greatly differs from that of conventional CAD and architectural design/modeling tools. Even compared to most of ArchiCAD's other third-party plugins that try to integrate the logic or a sense of the logic of AC's interface and workflow, it's just like working in a different world. And Let's not even forget that the bridge itself was/is so problematic that geometry that could be easily handled in Maxonform/C4D, when transferred back to ArchiCAD, couldn't be easily documented (which was part of the whole point) if you were lucky, or more likely it easily cause it to crash due to the polycount, despite optimization in C4D.

And I don't even consider the Curtain wall tool to be an improvement of the modeling tool-set since only a limited number of people stand to benefit from it given it's apparent limitations and GS's usual half-step implementation ala the Complex profiler from AC10. How would it be of benefit to residential designers, for example? Don't even get me started on the fact that rendering capabilities in AC (which are grounded in a poorly, crippled and half-heartedly implemented Lightworks engine from 3 versions ago, are also now loped off to C4D as well (or Artlantis if you prefer that route).

I'll actually wait until they release the program, but from everything I've seen thus far, ArchiCAD 12 is, or rather is going to be a disappointment in many areas. I mean, if I understand it well, the stair tool is still a migraine to work with, especially if you're designing a custom stair and might want custom handrails, balustrades or panes, only with v12 you now have more accurate ways to document your frustrations with expanded 2D symbols . But that's okay, I guess- after all, there's always C4D for anything beyond the realm of the 8 or 9 template stairs that they have in the stair tool. Right.

The speed improvements and multi-core optimizations are great, particularly if they enable the developers to now concentrate, on addressing all these issues and deficiencies from so many versions back. But frankly speaking, I think there's little benefit to upgrading to this version, especially if one is not going to be designing straight faced, vertical storefronts and building's with curtain-wall facades that don't diverge on the Z-axis, and if also if one might need some robust modeling beyond the capabilities of the Complex Profiler and SEO to handle with ease, at anytime during the next year. I'll just wait to see what version 13 offers next year before assessing what direction this program seems to be headed in for the future.

It's a pity because I really like using this program - but the time is fast approaching when the technical realities of my professional requirements and needs will vastly surpass my sentimentalism.

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:23:06 GMT

3djunior wrote:
yes i agree with you , but graphisoft has to be in mind to add this modelling
capabilities ,if it is posible in the next archicad versions , as i know there is a software in the USA market , wich offer a great modeling options to design tall buildings , i think is from microstation , , i really dont remember now . and i dont have tested only i saw an advertisement in architectural record magazine

Microstation is indeed a powerful tool (in terms of modeling) but with a god-aweful interface and high learning curve. Revit seem to be trying to match them for modeling robustness (with tools like building-maker, Swept-blend and better Boolean operator managers) while also trying to improve their own interface and make it more user-friendly. Rhino which is traditionally not an architectural program but is one of the best Nurbs/free-form modelers with an easy to grasp interface, for anyone in the CAD and design industry, also seems to be trying to improve their documentation and parametric capabilities to tap into the dissatisfied niche of mostly architectural designers seeking better modeling tools for non-rectilinear or non-orthogonal forms.

Graphisoft on the other hand, still believe they don't need to improve these areas.....

.......go figure.

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Anonymous — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:16:34 GMT

And I don't even consider the Curtain wall tool to be an improvement of the modeling tool-set since only a limited number of people stand to benefit from it given it's apparent limitations and GS's usual half-step implementation ala the Complex profiler from AC10. How would it be of benefit to residential designers, for example?

I would wait and see if it is as "limited" as you think it might be. I saw a tudor half timber wall, a decorative tile floor, a handrail, a timber roof and a sloping skylight curb made using the "curtain wall tool". It really functions in a different way than previous tools and seems to indicate a whole different direction for "tool" development from GS.

I only have limited exposure to the tool, but I'd wait to see what it is capable of before writing it off as unusable for residential use.

Don Lee

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:11:21 GMT

Don wrote:
.....

I would wait and see if it is as "limited" as you think it might be. I saw a tudor half timber wall, a decorative tile floor, a handrail, a timber roof and a sloping skylight curb made using the "curtain wall tool". It really functions in a different way than previous tools and seems to indicate a whole different direction for "tool" development from GS.

I only have limited exposure to the tool, but I'd wait to see what it is capable of before writing it off as unusable for residential use.

Don Lee

I'm merely going by comments and statements that have been made by Beta-testers who have had experience with it. Such as the fact that the featured building on the ArchiCAD 12 demo videos and presumably to be on the box as well, did not have its curtain wall, or more specifically the curving area at the top of the building, built using the Curtain wall tool (since its incapable of curving or profiling in the Z-axis) but instead was done in an earlier version using tedious GDL coding methods.

That, to me, considerably limits its versatility and function beyond the building types and design types I mentioned. I would be curious to see the examples you mentioned above (link please) since they did not feature any of them in the official demo videos). I will also be very very glad to be wrong and way off base here since this is likely to be more useful to me as a complete tool than not

Incidentally, I found the post I referenced earlier regarding GS's plans and Maxonform. Sorry to have to put Akos on the spot for this since I'm sure he's a very good and capable product manager at GSHQ, but the exact quote went as follows:

Modeling freedom in ArchiCAD?
I have to emphasize that introducing MaxonForm does NOT mean that we stop developing ArchiCAD’s own modeling capabilities. MaxonForm was NOT developed to replace the freedom in modeling and editing ArchiCAD construction elements. MaxonForm is a tool to create free-form organic objects.

Akos
Bezegh

ArchiCAD
Product
Manager
GSHQ

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Maxon Freeform in ArchiCad

The original thread was here:

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=7178&postdays=0&postorder=desc&&start=32

......and was a pretty interesting thread overall. And now Maxonform is dead.

In retrospect, it's somewhat easier to understand from that thread, why GS developers now tend to stay away from posting or participating on these forums since their words can have to tendency to com back and haunt them.

Regardless I would still prefer to have a developer who tells me a certain feature or features will be developed and when it doesn't happen then they still have the decency to let us know that this is the case and explain why it wouldn't or can't happen - rather than being left in the dark as seems to be the standard policy now.

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Anonymous — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:13:51 GMT

Bricklyne wrote:
... I wish I could find that exact post - one of the few times they used to ever bother to responding to user posts questions and inquiries; I'll try to see if I can find it, but I distinctly remember it, as being an indicator that it was not necessary to invest in purchasing or learning Maxonform over the long term, if one didn't need to since GS seemed inclined to bring the level and power of AC's modeling tool-set to the level, or rather, close to the level of Maxonform in terms of versatility and robustness...

Was it this post you refered to?

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=44053&highlight=maxonform#44053

(Edit) Beat me to it! Took too long having a read!

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Bricklyne Clarence — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:17:07 GMT

Peter wrote:
Bricklyne wrote:
... I wish I could find that exact post - one of the few times they used to ever bother to responding to user posts questions and inquiries; I'll try to see if I can find it, but I distinctly remember it, as being an indicator that it was not necessary to invest in purchasing or learning Maxonform over the long term, if one didn't need to since GS seemed inclined to bring the level and power of AC's modeling tool-set to the level, or rather, close to the level of Maxonform in terms of versatility and robustness...
Was it this post you refered to?

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=44053&highlight=maxonform#44053

.......we are of one mind.

I found it at about the same time you did; but thanks anyway.

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Anonymous — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:13:38 GMT

Hi Clarence , i agree with you , you have explain oneself very clearly , thanks

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Anonymous — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:37:52 GMT

another thing iam desagree it is the fact ,that if i have to update the maxonform to C4D ,why my maxonform will be took for a half of their original price '? i mean why nemeschek or GS , cant help to all of us licensed users to update easaly and in an honestly manner so we can go forward working together ??? this seems to me not a very friendly way to try a user, even when i think all guys we are in this forum , is because we really like working with archicad ?

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

__archiben — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:10:28 GMT

you fellas have got to get real - blobitecture is just a fad, man!

start designing some proper buildings . . .

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Anonymous — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 02:41:40 GMT

Hey - it isn't just blobitecture

I'm still upset that what I could do in v9 with the (then free) GDL Toolbox I still cannot do! The roof on the attached pic could be modelled with some fidelity....

😞

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Bricklyne Clarence — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 04:10:11 GMT

~/archiben wrote:
you fellas have got to get real - blobitecture is just a fad, man!

start designing some proper buildings . . .

....right. blobitecture.

.....the good ol' standard company-line stock defense. I see.

So does that mean that I will be able to design this stair (below) with ArchiCAD 12 and have it read as a stair with all the parametric bells and whistles and not having to code a single line of GDL?

...bear in mind that the stair (potentially blobtectural, by your standards, no doubt) below was designed and built some 20 odd years ago (almost as old if not older than ArchiCAD itself- meaning that ArchiCAD should have matured enough to be able to handle that in a breeze. Right?

(don't even get me started on whether the new super-duper Curtain wall tool will allow me to design and model that thing in the background behind the stair covering the atrium)

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Bricklyne Clarence — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 04:12:54 GMT

......no?

...how about the little handrail below? Will the new Stair tool improvements allow me to add that molded detail to my stairs now, in AC12?

....or are we still talking about blobitecture here?

that looks to me to be about 10-15 years old, at the very very least. I can't imagine someone pulled that one off without something so cool and advanced as ArchiCAD.

Re: about archicad 12 modeling and rendering capabilities

Bricklyne Clarence — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 04:15:29 GMT

......still no?

Speaking of improved Stair tools. I'm also guessing I should be able to pull this one off in ArchiCAD 12 lickedy-spliff, with no problems whatsoever.
right?

What's that, you say? Still blobitecture?