topic Re: Grouping on or off? in Modeling

Grouping on or off?

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:54:27 GMT

I don't know if anyone else is bothered by this - but when I ask around the office the others all agree it drives them mad too.

The problem is whether to work with grouping on or off.

If on, then if you go stretch part of the building that includes a group, the group doesn't stretch. So you have to undo, turn off grouping, and try again.

If off, then you copy part of the building that includes a group, only to discover that your group is ungrouped in the copy, or worse - modules that don't get included in the copy at all.

How to overcome this?

One possibility might be to issue warnings:
"Your selection includes a group. Turn off grouping if you wish to stretch entire selection"
or
"Your selection includes grouped elements. Turn on grouping if you wish those copied items to remain grouped"

I imagine this might become irksome.

Alternatively, I wonder if there couldn't be a 'locked' status for groups that you would never want to stretch (or modify in any way). Then, grouped items would stretch along with other elements (with grouping turned on) unless the group was 'locked'.

Any thoughts?

Re: Grouping on or off?

David Maudlin — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:07:41 GMT

This is one reason I still have the Control Palette displayed in my Work Environment, it shows the current Group/Suspend Group status. Both states have their uses, I can't see having it on or off all the time.

David

Re: Grouping on or off?

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:29:03 GMT

Keith wrote:
Alternatively, I wonder if there couldn't be a 'locked' status for groups that you would never want to stretch (or modify in any way). Then, grouped items would stretch along with other elements (with grouping turned on) unless the group was 'locked'.

Any thoughts?

You can select any group and lock them manually with the Lock command. If you assign a key shortcut to the Lock command then it is pretty fast and easy to do. You can actually do this right after creating the group.

Otherwise I agree that there is no way of saying whether the Grouping is better ON or OFF, it just depends so much on the user, his/her working method and the situation.

Re: Grouping on or off?

Anonymous — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:40:41 GMT

Oh, so locking already exists! I didn't know that, after 10 years of working in Archicad!

So, what is the point of locking, if, when a group is unlocked, it can't be stretched or otherwise modified without first turning grouping off?

Re: Grouping on or off?

Laszlo Nagy — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:12:32 GMT

Well, that is a good question, but I would say locking was not meant only for groups. It was meant for any element or layer you don't want to be modified, temporarily or permanently.
But I could also ask you the opposite: if you don't want to move something, why put it in a group? Just lock those elements and you are set, they will not go anywhere.

But anyway, these two feature, I would say, have been in ArchiCAD since I know the program (since 1995) and have not changed.

But if you have a suggestion you can always make a wish and people can vote on it if they find it a good idea.

Re: Grouping on or off?

Anonymous — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:48:37 GMT

Thanks Laszio, I'll make a wish!

Yours is a good question too. I frequently work on drawings that have been started by other people, and often wonder why they have grouped certain elements. I'm always reluctant to ungroup what others have grouped (my pet hate in Autocad was discovering wcs that consisted of nothing but ungrouped lines and arcs!). I think it's often done as a way of 'recording' a selection of objects in case you wish to repeat the selection.

However I also think there are lots of good reasons for grouping elements, where you may want to modify individual instances of those groups later. For example, on an elevation, there may be an exit platt and steps or ramp which repeats around the building, and, unless they've been modelled, you draw a little group of lines and then stamp it on each door. Later you raise the finished ground level, forget to turn off grouping, and hey presto, your external thresholds are now higher than the floor level. I can think of many other similar instances.

Re: Grouping on or off?

Laszlo Nagy — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:00:33 GMT

These are legitimate issues you are raising here. Actually, these would be handled by something that I would love to see in ArchiCAD: the ability to associate elements with other elements. For example, imagine that you could associate a point in this group in this Elevation to a point of a Door. Then, if the Door moves anywhere, this group of lines moves with it. It would be awesome.

Re: Grouping on or off?

Link — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:55:04 GMT

Keith wrote:
I think it's often done as a way of 'recording' a selection of objects in case you wish to repeat the selection.

You can use the Selections palette (Window>Palettes>Selections) for this.

In fact I am sure you can add multiple selections from multiple viewpoints, such as plan and elevation, as long as the elements all belong to the same storey. This ~may~ be of use to you?

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Grouping on or off?

Anonymous — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:49:00 GMT

David wrote:
This is one reason I still have the Control Palette displayed in my Work Environment, it shows the current Group/Suspend Group status.

Same with me!

Re: Grouping on or off?

Anonymous — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:51:07 GMT

kliment wrote:
David wrote:
This is one reason I still have the Control Palette displayed in my Work Environment, it shows the current Group/Suspend Group status.
Same with me!

Yep, doesn't take long to check when you need to (although I do forget occasionally )

Re: Grouping on or off?

Anonymous — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:56:49 GMT

Yes, for me, remembering is the problem.

Here's a typical scenario:

I'll fillet these 2 lines which don't quite join.
Oops - error. They won't fillet. Further investigation shows that one of them's a polyline. Explode the polyline. Try again.
Oops - error. Now the polyline's a group. Turn off grouping. Try again.
Success! Next!

Copy this section of the drawing over here. Now move that group.
Oops - it's no longer a group.
I forgot to turn grouping back on. Undo. Undo. Undo.
Turn grouping on. Do the copy again.
Success! Phew!

Link wrote:
You can use the Selections palette (Window>Palettes>Selections) for this.

Yes, but I'm trying to figure out why other people make so many groups on their drawings - which I then have to edit!

Re: Grouping on or off?

Link — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 09:49:42 GMT

Sounds like you've got Auto Grouping on.

Turning that off as a standard across the whole office would certainly help!

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Grouping on or off?

Anonymous — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:38:15 GMT

Good idea, Link. Thanks.

Re: Grouping on or off?

Link — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 19:01:43 GMT

No worries mate. Just make sure it's turned off in your template too. (You do have a template right?)

I think that will eliminate most of your problems moving forward.

Apart from that, having the Control box open for a quick visual check if grouping is enabled/disabled is key. You could also include the same in a toolbar so you have it in two places?

Better yet, how about what is shown in the image..?

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Grouping on or off?

Anonymous — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:27:23 GMT

I like it!

But I've discovered that knowing whether grouping is on or off isn't the problem.

It's more a case of whether there are groups lurking among the objects that you're about to stretch. Unlike a normal selection, when a group is revealed by its handles, when using a marquee, you only find the hidden groups when it's too late - i.e. when you find that part of the drawing has moved rather than stretched. Then you have to go and turn off grouping and try again.

It reminds me of the circumstance in Autocad, where, if you wanted to stretch objects you had to select them using a 'crossing' window. Since the command following 'Stretch' was always 'crossing' it made sense to write a LISP routine that combined these 2 commands into one.

Now, if I could only program Archicad I would automatically turn off grouping when instituting a stretch, and turn it back on when finished. That would be so neat! Is it too much to hope Graphisoft would do it for me?!