topic Re: Archicad pricing policy in Modeling

Archicad pricing policy

Anonymous — Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:30:34 GMT

Can please someone from GS explain the big difference in prices bettween US and Europe?

The price in Europe is almost double.

This also holds for upgrades.

Can please someone give a responsible answer?

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Vitruvius — Wed, 08 Sep 2004 07:22:02 GMT

I concur.

This is a real problem. Prices through the local Hong Kong distributor are 40 - 50% higher than prices in the US. And all the local guys are doing is handing me a box which costs US $25. to FedEx out here. Their knowledge of the programme is superficial and quite useless for anyone above the beginner level so there's no "value add".

I now buy my upgrades and programmes when travelling to the US on business.

Graphisoft, this is a VERY BIG PROBLEM for your users. You can't build loyalty and expand your user base whilst your distributors are price gouging your customers.

And they are ripping us off - I can buy every other software package under the sun in HK for virtually what it costs in the US, but for some reason GS and the local distributor spout some skewed logic about "special packages for the international market" driving up the price. By 40 - 50%!!!! What rubbish.

Tell you what, give me a US package at a US price and I'll be a happy camper. Or better yet, let us order direct from GS so everyone pays the same price.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

stefan — Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:54:58 GMT

For a moment, I had been trying to sell my ArchiCAD license (a few years ago). A reasonal price-reduction had to be bigger then the difference to upgrade to the newest versions. But that was still more expensive then a new US-license !

We pay about $6500 in Belgium (+ add another 21% taxes!). And the HOL (dutch) version isn't being made anymore, so there is no reason to have a different price from the International version.

But the explanation my distributor made, was that the price was determined by the market.

I would suggest a price around $4000 worldwide and an upgrade price each two years of about $400 per version. Double that to $800 when you're two versions behind. Simple. Clear.

Or be very competitive and sell it for about $2500 and increase market share. But better ask firms like Alias or Avid if it helped selling Maya and XSI 😉 Discreet 3ds max never lowered it's price, yet people still keep buying & upgrading it. (I'm not into marketing so I probably don't understand the way it works at all)

Oh and beware, even if Maya is $2000, maintenance is still about $1000 each year! That's something users won't like 😉

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Jefferson — Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:17:07 GMT

I think you gents are being VERY well behaved here given the paces you're being put through. Software companies make an aggressive attempts to stop pirate products from making it to "market" so why not look out for the loyal and legal customers with price protection???

I think if you can get Graphisoft's attention, and I bet you have, everyone on this talk board would stand behind you to see standardized pricing. I do.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Vitruvius — Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:55:45 GMT

Dear Jeff,

I think yours is the sensible and diplomatic reply we'd expect from GS. Many thanks for the solidarity!!!

Cheers, Cameron

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Vitruvius — Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:40:09 GMT

Dear Stefan,

You've made some very pertinant arguments. GS should now, more than ever, concentrate on increasing market share rather than pricing on "what the market will accept".

With Revit being purchased by AutoDesk, there's a very real global competitor who probably won't put their customers through the same nonsense. And the bulk of prospects for GS are probably AutoCAD users who will gravitate to Revit because of inertia and incentive pricing.

Referring to some earlier discussions of the same ilk, I would heartily recommend that GS do the following:

1. Standardize prices worldwide immediately.

2. Make ArchiCAD more accessible to new users by selling the last version at a discount (i.e. when V9 issues, sell copies of V8 at a heavy discount with the proviso that the upgrade to current version costs the difference). Get the students, small practices and sole practicioners on board and on the upgrade route. The near-useless time-key concept is a joke.

3. Focus on building market share through the above financial incentives - because the big AutoDesk machine has now entered your market with a very credible and very real alternative. And they have a much larger installed user base.

I recently bought Piranesi through a local distibutor who charged a mere $25. more than their US counterparts. That's the cost of shipping and a fair premium. I expect the same consideration from a company (GS) to whom I've paid thousands of dollars over the past ten years.

Apple lost their market in spite of having a superior product because they thought they had a lock on pricing. They didn't, and GS doesn't either.

Wake up guys! When my personal investment in a particular software package is balanced against the "non-ArchiCAD literate" bulk of employees entering the practice, the cost of switching becomes negligible. And I expect a year or two down the road there will be a lot of Revit users on the market.

All of whom will walk through the front door and start earning fee by lunch on their first day at work!

My first loyalty is to my practice and profession - as much as I love using ArchiCAD, I'll switch in a New York minute if the business case suggests that's the wisest course and there is a more widely used competitor of the same capability.

I want employees versed in virtual building, and if the market readily produces Revit employees I'll switch regardless of the minor merits (or demerits) of the software.

My business engine is my employees, not my software package.

How about a response from the Graphisoft folks?

Cheers, Cameron

PS - This is not to be construed as misgivings with ArchiCAD as a product and certainly not to be used as fodder for the opposing team. ArchiCAD is a great product which I fear is going to be relegated to a niche player for reasons of commerce rather than quality.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Aaron Bourgoin — Thu, 09 Sep 2004 04:16:48 GMT

With Revit being purchased by AutoDesk, there's a very real global competitor who probably won't put their customers through the same nonsense.

[upgrade pricing? other nonsense?].

Please forgive me if I am taking your comment out of what is a narrow context and hauling it out into in the greater debate that has raged on this forum since the announcement of ArchiCAD 9.

I believe that Autodesk products fetch a similarly exorbitant premium off American shores as do Microsoft Office Products.

I don't disagree with the suggestion that the price points in different countries should be so disparate, but simply that Autodesk is no angel in the upgrade market either.

I personally believe that Autodesk are the Big Brother of the Industry and I say this as an architect first, a ten year ArchiCAD user second and an ArchiCAD solutions provider third.

Investment in Autodesk product represents a buy-in to a company that purchases technology and reaps the rewards from on the backs of others. My last examination of an Autodesk Annual Report was two years ago, but in that document I discerned that AEC accounted for a surprisingly small share of their revenue. They were making their money that year from another company they acquired - one that made software for film production or something. They are fiercely proud of their ability to maximize shareholder value.

As for their customers, I think that they persist in "putting their customers through something.

My partial dirty laundry list includes:

1. AutoCAD 13
2. AutoCAD 14 (the biggest mea culpa ever - Jim Bakker & Tammy Faye couldn't ever shed as many crocodile tears).
3. ADT & Revit as the bling bling tied to the purchase of AutoCAD seats.
4. Annual Maintenance fees and customer support plans from the mother ship.
5. the erosion of a dealer support network
6. license agreements that expire with annual upgrades.
7. inflexible terms for upgrades (upgrade all or none apparently)
8. grossly exaggerated claims about their software in both the media and print ads.
9. ???

I humbly suggest that you have blinders on when it comes to Autodesk, its products and its business model. In the past 10 years the the local Autodesk dealer has disappeared because their commission rate got lowered to a point that they couldn't support it. It was my experience that ADT was demonstrated by a piping draftsman which also speaks to the sustainability of a local dealer network that seems to have eroded. Our local AutoCAD dealer sells plotters. They don't know how buildings work and often can't answer questions about the plotter either.

I'm told by prospective clients that Autodesk does not allow partial site license upgrades; recent contact in the business also suggested that when it came to Revit and ADT there was no clearly set policy as to which platform to present - it sounded more like "promise the client whatever it takes to get the AutoCAD sale". Is the maintenance of both ADT and Revit good for the BIM business - to my way of thinking it really hits the client base in the gut.

Autodesk is no stranger to client outrage - recall the rollout of AutoCAD 14 with its packaged "live via satellite" simulcasts. It was all done with laserdiscs. (kind of like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, actually).

The upgrade price structure for Graphisoft products has remained relatively stable in the 10 years that I've sold the product. Autodesk charges a flat fee per seat for annual maintenance plus it disowns your license if you don't upgrade. I can't comment on tech support plans in other countries, but the support network for ArchiCAD is dynamic and robust. I've said it before here, but I have clients who still have AC 4.55 and for whatever reason think that's just great.

If I were an Autodesk customer, why would I continue to pay money to remain in a perpetual state of limbo unless I had a lot of money tied up in Autodesk shares? Or in US politics. I understand that Carol Bartz is being touted as a serious candidate for the US presidency. Spooky.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

aahatimo — Thu, 09 Sep 2004 04:58:33 GMT

looks like prices may be increasing in the us at the end of the month for multi seat users anyway. my fax back form states: please note that graphisoft is ending volume discount pricing of upgrades and new licenses starting oct 1, 2004. until then 1-4 sites $495, 5-9 $375, 10+ $345. after sept 30 2004 all upgrade seats are $595.
this lack of volume pricing may not help building or keeping the user base either.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Vitruvius — Thu, 09 Sep 2004 06:43:32 GMT

Aaron,

I do believe you've shot your bolt wide of the mark.

AutoCad is irrelevant. Revit is the story and the fact that AutoDesk purchased this technology is a meaningless anecdote at best.

The fact is that AutoDesk has a massive installed user base through AutoCad which provides a ready entry for their next generation product Revit. It is pointless to castigate AutoDesk for product and marketing failings because it doesn't really seem to have hurt their business, does it? And AC 8 was as big a turkey as has ever graced a Thanksgiving table.

GS has suddenly got a massive competitor with a huge user base and incredible resources. I like ArchiCAD but to be honest, your vilification of AutoDesk as a souless corporate machine isn't exactly going to sell software or make converts. It's AutoDesks job to maximize shareholder value. GS does the same. That is the business model of every corporation. And what relevance does a CEO pursuing a political career have to my architectural practice?

Finally, your assertion vis-a-vis Autodesk and MS products carrying pricing premiums overseas is just plain wrong (at least here in Asia). I'm overseas - I know what I'm talking about.

As a loyal customer of GS for over 10 years, I and other overseas users are fed up with the price gouging policies of their distributors. And I've yet to hear a convincing argument as to why we overseas users should just shut up and take it.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Anonymous — Thu, 09 Sep 2004 06:45:32 GMT

Who says Autodesk is an angel.

On the contrary.

The pricing policy is very different across the glob, with prices reaching as much as twice the US price.

AND

They force you to upgrade every 2 upgrades or you lose your right to upgrade!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was the main reason i left them. THis is pure blackmail. Why should i upgrade form AutocadV14 to any later version? As architect i see no reason.

So i looked elsewere and Archicad is a great solution.

(dont here my grinning all the time I prefer talking about bad things because those things have to be fixed

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Eduardo Rolon — Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:40:20 GMT

Vitruvius wrote:
The fact is that AutoDesk has a massive installed user base through AutoCad which provides a ready entry for their next generation product Revit.

I disagree on this point. Most AutoCAD users are just users they learned the software and that was as far as it got. They will not switch to either Revit, ADT or AC because then they will have to relearn a new software (example of this is that most ADT users work with it as if it was just plain AutoCAD) and they are not in a position to evaluate new software or to think up new procedures to produce a set of Construction Docs. Also the other problem with this point is that it assumes that AutoCAD users are computer literate IMO the biggest majority are more like secretaries that only know how to work with MS Office and that's as far as their knowledge of computers goes.
I have given demos of AC to a lot of architectural offices either in conventions or in our regular association. The biggest concern from principals is not production it is what to do with their investment in AutoCAD and secondly the training for their employees (since our profession has a lot of turnover in employees they are afraid to have to keep training new personnel all the time). The only way Revit is going to be able to get into existing Architectural Offices is if AutoDesk sells it as an upgrade to AutoCAD users for the same price of a regular AutoCAD license, (that is how the majority of ADT licenses were sold) and even then it will not guarantee its use.
IMO the move to a BIM solution in an office situation is more difficult than the original switch from hand drawing to AutoCAD. The easiest way to start the change will be in schools if students graduate knowing how to use AC or Revit, eventually when they establish their office they will choose a BIM solution over a flatland program. Also GS might look into offering a discount to students for a professional license when they graduate since this will get AC into existing offices thru the backdoor.

On another point:

oreopoulos wrote:
The pricing policy is very different across the glob, with prices reaching as much as twice the US price.

AND

They force you to upgrade every 2 upgrades or you lose your right to upgrade!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was the main reason i left them. THis is pure blackmail. Why should i upgrade form AutocadV14 to any later version? As architect i see no reason.

So i looked elsewere and Archicad is a great solution.

This was one of the points that made me switch when I started my office.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Vitruvius — Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:13:16 GMT

This thread has migrated WAY off topic.

My original post was a whinge about the disparity in AC pricing globally. And, if any of you are working outside of North America you know exactly what I mean.

Secondly, and tangential to the above, it is about the fact that there is a very real competitor to ArchiCad out there. Yes, I really love ArchiCAD and hope for the best in terms of its future prospects but price is an issue.

The very real fact is that AutoDesk is now swimming in the same pond. And it is a very big shark.

And though I can't speak for other markets, the cold hard truth is that throughout Asia, a reference to ArchiCAD is consistently met with "what?". And when I get a colleague interested they instantly shut down when they're quoted a price 50% above AutoCAD. --- And, yes, I know AutoCAK ain't equivilant, but only to those who've used the best would pay for the difference.

ArchiCAD is a really great product, but their pricing policies could very likely consign them to a marginal role. Which would be a shame.

And Ejrolon: AutoCAD users may just be unthinking users per your logic, but at $3500. a pop, and with Revit in the wings, and with a massive installed user base, and an almost blind acceptance as the industry standard .... they have problems I would dream for.

Look folks, get off your "I hate AutoDesk" bandwagon and contribute some real ideas about how to expand the user base of a an exceptional software package.

Or learn to love Revit.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Vitruvius — Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:34:37 GMT

Ejrolin wrote:

"The only way Revit is going to be able to get into existing Architectural Offices is if AutoDesk sells it as an upgrade to AutoCAD users for the same price of a regular AutoCAD license."

Unless I'm grievously mistaken, AutoDesk has bought Revit as the successor to AutoCad and will do exactly what you've suggested. They'd be idiots ( which they demonstrably are not ) if they didn't do exactly that.

Every AutoCAD user will be enticed, financially and otherwise, to switch to Revit over the next couple of years.

And meanwhile, GS is still dodging the question of the egregious price differentials paid by their LOYAL users around the globe.

AND THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT!!!

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Eduardo Rolon — Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:04:48 GMT

Vitruvius wrote:
Unless I'm grievously mistaken, AutoDesk has bought Revit as the successor to AutoCad and will do exactly what you've suggested. They'd be idiots ( which they demonstrably are not ) if they didn't do exactly that.
And meanwhile, GS is still dodging the question of the egregious price differentials paid by their LOYAL users around the globe.

AND THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT!!!

Sorry I went Off Topic, I agree that the different price structure is not fair to the users.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Vitruvius — Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:57:14 GMT

Heyo Ejrolan,

No problem.

The issues I'm trying to raise are unfair pricing policy and the very real new competitor to our market. Don't misconstrue my thoughts, because I very much want to see GS prevail.

But AutoDesk will win thousands of converts through their acquisition of Revit. And AutoDesk bashing is a complete waste of time.

I really do differ with Aaron, because I don't think he's addressing the reality of the market - which is, bluntly speaking, AutoCAD users will switch to Revit because it is now an AutoDesk product. Tirades against the AutoDesk behemoth might be intellectually satisfying but they're damned useless at advocating a way of working.

This is a strictly commercial endeavour in which the winners will convince their users they have the best product. And honestly, GS may have the better product but still may lose the battle. My business is not about ArchiCAD, it is only a tool. And frankly, when that tool is blunted I'll dump it in a New York minute!!!

Because my business is design - and whatever tool best supports my business will prevail.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Anonymous — Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:12:34 GMT

Please allow me to make my first post ever here...some replies to comments scattered throughout...

Pricing to me has always seemed more magic than science, at least as a consumer. But let's face it software makers are out to make money and each market has different costs associated with doing business. Market size, language, politics, governments, taxation, incorporation, import/export, legal, insurance just to name a few. Not to mention the definitive "art" and magic, currency exchange rates.

That said, I'm not certain I could make a business model that works on the upgrade fee's of software alone. If you resent paying for a tool that significantly helps you and your staff crank out your firm's "widgets", then don't buy it and stick with what you have. It's always your call. How well will you do without it? For how long? How much will it cost to wait? Only you can decide.

Have "we" ever charged one client a different amount than another for a similar project? Or if "we" sell the same design to another client later, do "we" charge them less? Or last, do "we" charge the "chain" commercial client less for the next standard building that is just placed on a site differently?

ejrolon wrote:
...Most AutoCAD users are just users that learned the software and that was as far as it got...problem with this point is that it assumes that AutoCAD users are computer literate...

This is inaccurate and unfair to AutoCAD users in general. Most that I know are creative folks that use a tool to get their job done. Some are better than others, not that different a condition from Architects in general. Besides, not many users of software are actually in a position to say which they use in the first place.

I think this thread on pricing and the thread regarding the new release are very important and relevant for your favorite product's continued existence. I believe it is safe to say that Archicad has never made it to mainstream marketplace acceptance (at least in the USA) that companies dream of. Autodesk is attempting to make that happen for Revit. Autodesk HAS however made it into the mainstream marketplace for cadd in general and it is very very hard to knock off the leader because the mainstream market prefers to back the leader to protect their infrastructure. Both Archicad and Revit have a difficult task to bridge this bias toward the status quo, the same battle waged over the previous years with 2D cadd adoption.

If you don't think Autodesk is making it attractive for AutoCAD users or ADT users to switch, consider that it cost my firm $250 per seat to switch from ADT last year. With Revit Series you get AutoCAD too, for about $400 more. What better way to do some tasting of the VB, BIM concept while you do the 2d cadd business as usual?

The characterization that AutoCAD r14 was a bad release is ironic since its success has been a big part of the problem getting folks to upgrade to new versions. It worked so reliably that firms are still heavily committed to it. Only the recent lack of support for earlier versions has forced their hand, in some cases the new seats sit on shelves only to avoid paying full upgrade prices down the road.

Last, history is littered with the carcasses of better products that lost the battle to lesser foe...it happens time and time again. Right or wrong, fair or unfair... A company has to understand what drives their market and where their product is in the technology adoption cycle. Perhaps Graphisoft are right where they want to be and are content to maintain their niche?

and...I'm a Revit user...who cares about this "new" way of working taking it's rightful place in our profession.

Nice forum all...

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Vitruvius — Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:00:41 GMT

Good points Steve - history is littered with great products which lost out to lesser products. And most losers lost the race due to their own bad marketing and product overpricing.

What bugs me is that Stefan is paying $6500. in Europe, and GS wants me to pay $5000. here in Asia for a product which can be purchased in the US for $3500. or thereabouts. Market differences do not justify such variances - is the cost of doing business in New York really half the price of Europe? Do European architects earn twice as much as US architects?

My local distributor knows squat about ArchiCAD, yet GS suggests that I should pay him a premium of $1500. bucks to drop a box off at my office? I will pay for value added to my business but paying that kind of premium for no additional value is just plain stupid. No doubt the European users are likewise mystified at paying hefty premiums. All I am asking is that GS provide standardized global pricing.

In the meantime, I buy in the US every time I travel there on business. As does nearly every other ArchiCAD user I know in Asia. I have no idea how the local distributor is progressing with sales of ArchiCAD.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Anonymous — Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:48:49 GMT

Vitruvius wrote:
...Market differences do not justify such variances - is the cost of doing business in New York really half the price of Europe...

Since ArchiCAD is stronger in Europe than the USA (true?), I am surprised that it would cost more there unless pricing here is less to increase the sales potential? Are you speaking US dollars throughout your example?

Are you certain that there are not localization costs that legitimately drive up these prices in your country and others? These are not likely to be obvious but no less a factor. An import tax on a foreign product alone could negatively affect your price. How would you as the consumer know what or if this is happening unless you have connections with this part of your govenment? Just some thoughts...there has to be some "logic" even if it defies your analysis...even if it is opportunistic in nature.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Eduardo Rolon — Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:34:24 GMT

IMO the problem with the pricing policy is the "magic" that Steve_Stafford writes about if there was a formula that people could understand then there could be less problems. For example in Puerto Rico buying a car costs about 30% more than the list price in the US, the reason comes mostly from taxes and shipping costs. So I know that the Mini Cooper that I want, no matter how much I fight will cost me 32,000 instead of the 22,400 if I were living in the US mainland.

On the AutoCAD users as computer literate point, it is not my intention to sound unfair or inaccurate but IMO the switch to a BIM approach to production drawings will face the same hurdles as the switch from hand drafting to CAD. It does not matter if it is Revit or AC but Autodesk's advantage is the pricing option that it can offer its installed AutoCAD user base.

Re: Archicad pricing policy

Anonymous — Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:47:51 GMT

ejrolon wrote:
...but IMO the switch to a BIM approach to production drawings will face the same hurdles as the switch from hand drafting to CAD.

aaah, on this we agree certainly. Both AC and R must make it incredibly easy for non techie architects to use (a non techie architect is ironic to me since we must be conversant in many things to be effective, so why is cadd "hard).

This means for every metaphor we use to put our designs on paper (until there is an actual means to construct a bldg w/o paper) there must be a corresponding methodology that is easily followed and executed. No workarounds and tricks...these don't appeal to mainstream users, only the techie folks enjoy these. So this still means a leap forward beyond what we see today. As "simple" as each program is, they could each be easier to use...