topic Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately) in Modeling

How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Anonymous — Thu, 25 May 2023 15:05:39 GMT

Hi,

I'm in the process of making a rough model of part of a building concept at University. I'm quite familiar with the tools in ArchiCAD but since this structure is not 'typical' the tools don't seem to accommodate, or at least not in the way I would like them to.

I've tried creating this elevation (image attached of model) with a mesh, since the outlines of the elevation were created in ArchiCAD (2D fill), however, I can't rotate the Mesh on the y axis i.e it's drawn on plan but in 3D it needs to be rotates 90 degrees so it becomes a wall.

I've also tried creating each piece of the wall using OBJECTiVE but again, this takes far too long and I'm still left with empty spaces on the wall. ( the Model shows that there are walls protruding inside and outside of other elements)

I guess the mesh could work but it's just that it doesn't look like it can be rotated in 3D.

Thank you for your help.

PS I know the concept may look 'crazy' ( well contemporary architecture) but that's what they want in Architecture school these days...

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Dwight — Sun, 07 Nov 2010 02:10:47 GMT

Roof planes manipulated in 2D AND 3D.

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Anonymous — Sun, 07 Nov 2010 11:16:39 GMT

Can roof planes be edited like a mesh or do they only stay as one plane?...How would I go about filling in gaps where the roof has been rotated if the roof does not edit like a mesh.? I'm at work at the moment so I can't test it for myself but want to 'prepare'.

Thank You.

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

David Maudlin — Sun, 07 Nov 2010 12:55:43 GMT

NStocks:

1. Using Mesh: you can save ArchiCAD elements as library parts, when saving them you choose which side is up so you can rotate the Mesh. For more information with images, go to Help > ArchiCAD Help, when your browser opens click on the "Search" tab, and input "Saving 3D Models as Objects" in the search box, in the results list "Saving 3D Models as Objects" will lead to detailed information.

2. Using Roofs: Each plane would be one roof, so you would need as many roofs as there are planes. You can select and stretch roof nodes in the 3D Window so they meet other to create your design.

Neither of these solutions will accept windows and doors, so creating openings will be another issue.

David

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Anonymous — Sun, 07 Nov 2010 13:23:39 GMT

David wrote:
NStocks:

1. Using Mesh: you can save ArchiCAD elements as library parts, when saving them you choose which side is up so you can rotate the Mesh. For more information with images, go to Help > ArchiCAD Help, when your browser opens click on the "Search" tab, and input "Saving 3D Models as Objects" in the search box, in the results list "Saving 3D Models as Objects" will lead to detailed information.

2. Using Roofs: Each plane would be one roof, so you would need as many roofs as there are planes. You can select and stretch roof nodes in the 3D Window so they meet other to create your design.

Neither of these solutions will accept windows and doors, so creating openings will be another issue.

David

Windows and doors are fine, as long as I can create roofs/mesh that are translucent or that use glass materials. Again the school doesn't 'like' us to use a standard 2MX1.8M high door, or even a square door... The image I posted: the front part i.e closest to the camera is part of the 'front entrance'...

Thank You

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Anonymous — Sun, 07 Nov 2010 14:04:25 GMT

Ok I'm trying to model this with the roof tool, however If I want the wall (roof) to be 90 degrees from the floor, the roof becomes a really odd shape and nothing like what I drew in 2D.

Attached is some of the elements drawn in 2D, at 45 degrees. The other elements that is 89 degrees (max roof angle) is not what I drew on Plan. I will also need to rotate elements between 90 and 120 degrees, is the roof able to do that?

Other that these issues, it looks like it will work perfectly

Thank You

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Dwight — Sun, 07 Nov 2010 15:44:52 GMT

Yup. 89 degrees. Close enough for you. Or use the roofs to trim a vertical wall.

A 120 degree roof is a 60 degree roof sloping the other way.

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Anonymous — Sun, 07 Nov 2010 16:03:43 GMT

When I change the angle to 89 degrees, the roof becomes distorted. Like instead of it being 3M high, it looks like 30M high . As soon as I go past 90 degrees, this happens.

Even if I turn it the other way, as soon as I change the angle it becomes a different shapes, rather than just a different angle.

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Dwight — Sun, 07 Nov 2010 16:07:31 GMT

The roof is a different size whenever you change slope.
But it always stays the same in plan.
That is how roofs work.

What you need to do is manipulate the roof in 3D.

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Anonymous — Sun, 07 Nov 2010 21:51:20 GMT

If I draw the roof in Plan I can only change the angle. I can't 'rotate' the roof on the Y axis, only X which is not what I need. If I manipulate it in 3D (if you mean move nodes) then the design will diminish rapidly as it will become to complex/messy.

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Dwight — Sun, 07 Nov 2010 21:55:33 GMT

These kinds of problems are why I wave my arms about meaningfully and guys like you start to sweat.

You need to triangulate your principle roof points independently and then join them by making roofs in 3D.

See this topic in your Archicad Help:

"Create a Simple Roof in 3D"

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 01:05:39 GMT

I'm sorry I don't get this concept. I may just have to use OBJECTiVE and try to make joints meet with mesh's.

I don't get how to apply the 'Simple 3D Roof' to my design.

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Erika Epstein — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 03:48:25 GMT

Nathan,
The curtain wall tool is another option. You can make single panels of very unusual shapes, rotate them, turn of frames, you can make custom doors...
Could be fun
HTH

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Ralph Wessel — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 07:30:56 GMT

NStocks wrote:
I've also tried creating each piece of the wall using OBJECTiVE but again, this takes far too long and I'm still left with empty spaces on the wall. ( the Model shows that there are walls protruding inside and outside of other elements)

There are many different methods for using OBJECTiVE's tools. If you describe the way you're attempting to draw this, I might be able to suggest an easier method. It may still be a slow process though - forms like that aren't trivial to realise, hence the fact that you rarely see them in real buildings.

One thing to bear in mind is that OBJECTiVE gives you the ability to change the working plane. If the setout is difficult in the current plane, rotate the whole assembly into a plane that simplifies the problem.

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 11:00:58 GMT

Ralph wrote:
NStocks wrote:
I've also tried creating each piece of the wall using OBJECTiVE but again, this takes far too long and I'm still left with empty spaces on the wall. ( the Model shows that there are walls protruding inside and outside of other elements)
There are many different methods for using OBJECTiVE's tools. If you describe the way you're attempting to draw this, I might be able to suggest an easier method. It may still be a slow process though - forms like that aren't trivial to realise, hence the fact that you rarely see them in real buildings.

One thing to bear in mind is that OBJECTiVE gives you the ability to change the working plane. If the setout is difficult in the current plane, rotate the whole assembly into a plane that simplifies the problem.

I'm drawing the profile using a slab, then I rotate it to make the shapes fit together better. The problem is that the angles need to be precise so that the shapes fit correctly - something I will have a problem with no matter which tool I use.

Once the planes have been rotated, there are large gaps or overhangs and SEO's don't always cut away each part...The image I posted took over 90 minutes to resemble what I wanted, even though it wasn't very close!

I don't mind spending too long on the model ( I have 3 days) as longs as it's accurate enough and looks like my model.

I have all the outlines of each elevation so it's no problem finding the shape, it's just fitting them together.

I've ried Sketchup but it's the most stupid software I know. Maybe it's because I don't use it often enough but I find it hard to just rotate things! (Again complex shape)

A Rant: My Tutor is all well saying that we need not to make 'Shoe boxes' i.e more practical but create something that " Can change the City"... He hasn't touched CAD for years he said so he doesn't know what kind of learning curves we go though when we have only a few weeks to complete a project!... The ongoing debate about architecture school continues but not what I want to discuss on here

Thank You

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Ralph Wessel — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 11:07:20 GMT

NStocks wrote:
I'm drawing the profile using a slab, then I rotate it to make the shapes fit together better. The problem is that the angles need to be precise so that the shapes fit correctly - something I will have a problem with no matter which tool I use.

OK - rather than drawing the polygon first and then rotating into place to see if it fits, could you rotate the entire assembly so that the position for the new polygon is in the plane of the floor plan, i.e. horizontal, and then simply trace the polygon over the required opening (making a profile with OBJECTiVE of course). Because all OBJECTiVE components can be freely rotated, you can continue this process of re-orientating your model to create subsequent polygons. Not trivial, but workable I think.

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 11:14:20 GMT

Ralph wrote:
NStocks wrote:
I'm drawing the profile using a slab, then I rotate it to make the shapes fit together better. The problem is that the angles need to be precise so that the shapes fit correctly - something I will have a problem with no matter which tool I use.
OK - rather than drawing the polygon first and then rotating into place to see if it fits, could you rotate the entire assembly so that the position for the new polygon is in the plane of the floor plan, i.e. horizontal, and then simply trace the polygon over the required opening (making a profile with OBJECTiVE of course). Because all OBJECTiVE components can be freely rotated, you can continue this process of re-orientating your model to create subsequent polygons. Not trivial, but workable I think.

That's kind of what I did/ Although the elevation looks like 1 large shapes because it's flat at the minute (fill/slab) I have created each shape individually. Like on the model, there are around 8 separate outlines that I have cut/scored to bend or fold...

Below is what I achieved (although this was slightly quicker). It looks a mess but that's mainly because the angles aren't correct or there are gaps.

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Ralph Wessel — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 11:20:58 GMT

NStocks wrote:
That's kind of what I did/ Although the elevation looks like 1 large shapes because it's flat at the minute (fill/slab) I have created each shape individually. Like on the model, there are around 8 separate outlines that I have cut/scored to bend or fold...

Does that mean your proposed design contains curved elements, i.e. the element faces are not in the same plane? If that is the case, I assume that makes it impossible to trace an exact polygon shape because the opening edges are not all in the same plane. Is this the case?

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 11:34:17 GMT

Ralph wrote:
NStocks wrote:
That's kind of what I did/ Although the elevation looks like 1 large shapes because it's flat at the minute (fill/slab) I have created each shape individually. Like on the model, there are around 8 separate outlines that I have cut/scored to bend or fold...
Does that mean your proposed design contains curved elements, i.e. the element faces are not in the same plane? If that is the case, I assume that makes it impossible to trace an exact polygon shape because the opening edges are not all in the same plane. Is this the case?

All the planes are flat, they are just not a a 90 degree angle. Below is a image of the fills I've used to created each separate piece of the elevation, which obviously creates the outlines of the elevation. By hi lighting the profiles you can see the different shapes that have made the elevation - that is shapes go in and out of what would be the boundary line (if that makes sense)

Re: How would you go about creating this? (accurately)

Ralph Wessel — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 12:08:34 GMT

NStocks wrote:
All the planes are flat, they are just not a a 90 degree angle. Below is a image of the fills I've used to created each separate piece of the elevation, which obviously creates the outlines of the elevation. By hi lighting the profiles you can see the different shapes that have made the elevation - that is shapes go in and out of what would be the boundary line (if that makes sense)

The image seems to be missing.

I'm still not sure where the process is going wrong. Are you doing something like the following:

1. Create the primary/major building surfaces, but not necessary the correct shape.
2. Use the Split tool to cut the surfaces where they intersect. You may need to rotate the whole assembly to an appropriate working plane to do this.
3. Create the secondary surfaces to close gaps by rotating the whole assembly such that the vertices of the opening are on a level plane and tracing over the required opening size.

OBJECTiVE's rotation is not limited to 90 degrees or to any particular axis, so this should be achievable.