topic Re: How do I keep groups within a group? in Modeling

How do I keep groups within a group?

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:09:35 GMT

Is there a switch I am missing to allow ArchiCAD to keep subgroups within groups? Since AC9, whenever I group multiple groups (say to select and move them all at once) then ungroup the overall group all of the subgroups are ungrouped as well leaving one mess of ungrouped objects. What am I doing wrong here?

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:39:56 GMT

Make sure that the group function is active (not suspended) when you ungroup. This behavior is similar to copy/paste which retains group identity only when the group function is on.

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:53:44 GMT

Thanks Matthew. I should have made that connection.

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

vfrontiers — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:13:46 GMT

OMG! 20 years at this and I still know nothing!

Thanks Matthew!

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

JaredBanks — Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:49:39 GMT

Matthew Lohden,

where can we build a statue of you to proclaim our thanks? I can't believe I never even accidentally discovered this. I even just told a new user at my firm that this couldn't be done! If I could only remember who...

And for clarification, groups need to be enabled when you make the super group as well. Otherwise the other groups will be lost. Seems obvious now, but I figure it's worth adding to this great tip.

Thanks!

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:31:38 GMT

I've previously expressed a wish that, when copying grouped objects, Archicad would display a message that says:

"You are about to copy a group, but grouping is suspended. Are you sure you really want to do this?"

Keith
Archicad ver 12 on Mac OSX 10.4.8

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

Anonymous — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 13:24:38 GMT

Keith, it sounds like Microsoft: "Are you sure you want to do this?" No, thanks! 😉

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

Laura Yanoviak — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 19:50:02 GMT

A useful tip is to keep grouping ACTIVE at all times -- suspending groups should be considered a temporary setting, and one should get in the habit of enabling groups once the need for suspended groups is no longer necessary.

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

JaredBanks — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:55:58 GMT

Good point. What's your take with new users and always having groups enabled? I feel like I too often have new users accidentally deleting an entire group when they only mean to delete one thing (say a wall) in a group. Often because they are zoomed in and can't see the rest of the group or because other pieces of the group don't show in the particular view/elevation/section. And of course being new at the program they tend not to notice this until it's too late to undo. If groups are always suspended unless they're needed, this would (i imagine) help minimize this issue.

Thoughts?

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

Karl Ottenstein — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:14:26 GMT

JaredBanks wrote:
Good point. What's your take with new users and always having groups enabled? I feel like I too often have new users accidentally deleting an entire group when they only mean to delete one thing (say a wall) in a group. Often because they are zoomed in and can't see the rest of the group or because other pieces of the group don't show in the particular view/elevation/section.

Whether deleting or editing, IMHO one should always look at the Info Box to see how many elements are selected. This avoids the problem you mention.

I agree with Laura ... and this is also why I recommend that users learn the shortcut alt/opt-G [at least that's mine] for toggling the suspend group status. (Ctrl/cmd-G for group, ctrl/cmd-shift-G for ungroup is handy too.)

Then, it is easy to select a group, then quickly suspend groups (alt-g) so that the group can be edited, particularly using the pet palette for using polygon edits on a group of walls, or perhaps for marquee stretching, and then enable groups again (alt-g).

Cheers,
Karl

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

Laura Yanoviak — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:18:41 GMT

JaredBanks wrote:
Often because they are zoomed in and can't see the rest of the group or because other pieces of the group don't show in the particular view/elevation/section.

How close are they zoomed in? The selection node display should make it pretty obvious whether or not an element is part of a Group.

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

JaredBanks — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:31:29 GMT

I never really looked to notice that the info box tells me how many items are selected (I always used other methods to know how many objects were selected). I'll definitely add that into my bag of tricks for helping new users understand what they have/haven't selected. I've definitely found that the sooner I can get a new user to use alt/opt+G the better.

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

vfrontiers — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:19:49 GMT

Here's where I want the ubiquitous MS warning...

"Are you sure you want to delete with Groups Enabled"

or

"Are you sure you want to delete the contents of the Marquee". This happens all the time when there is a live marquee and you think you select something prior to hitting the delete key, but you really haven't.

Maybe this warnings can be WE'd in or out.

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

JaredBanks — Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:32:34 GMT

That would be nice. Like training wheels. Until you (the new user) prove to me you won't do that, you'll have to deal with those types of warnings. I'd also like a big fat warning for when a new user doesn't option+command when changing between door or window objects in the settings dialog box (and as a result loses all the predefined pen numbers, linetypes, etc.). I'd love it if it were default that way and you had to try not to transfer settings. Guess this is turning into a wishlist!

Oh and as for how far are they zoomed in. I guess that varies, but I think it also is caused by just generally being overwhelmed by the whole process. There's so much for a new user to think about, that if group/ungroup falls out of the top ten, this problem can happen.

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

Laura Yanoviak — Fri, 02 Jan 2009 17:03:06 GMT

JaredBanks wrote:
Oh and as for how far are they zoomed in. I guess that varies, but I think it also is caused by just generally being overwhelmed by the whole process. There's so much for a new user to think about, that if group/ungroup falls out of the top ten, this problem can happen.

Ya, but the appearance of nodes is pretty basic stuff. Also, if the Element Information Pop-up is enabled (which it should be, especially with new users), it will inform you that the element is part of a Group.

Re: How do I keep groups within a group?

Anonymous — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 09:49:02 GMT

Laura wrote:
A useful tip is to keep grouping ACTIVE at all times -- suspending groups should be considered a temporary setting, and one should get in the habit of enabling groups once the need for suspended groups is no longer necessary.

I'm sure this is the best policy. My problem is that I very often work on other people's drawings, and keep finding that (or so it seems!) every time I go to edit something, it's part of a group. So I suspend groups ....

We should refine our grouping policy.

What I really wanted to say was that I find it odd that the selection arrow tool which is supposed to select only items within the window will select a group if only part of it falls within the window. Isn't this wrong?

Keith

Archicad ver 12 on Mac 0SX 10.4.8