topic Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2 in Modeling

I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2000.

vfrontiers — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:13:24 GMT

So I have two keys and as it turns out, the economy stinks and I need to sell one of my "assets" to make ends meet. I figure that with the investment made in ArchiCAD over the past 10+ years (and 10 before that with other companies money) that there would be some equity in it.

So following proper procedure, I contact my reseller to find out how to go about selling (I've done it before, so I knew there were some hoops to jump thru). It is here I find out that after I sell my ArchiCAD Key to a 3rd party, THEY will HAVE TO PAY over $2000.00 to register the key in their name!

Ok... so I flipped my lid... and shot back an angry email... but the only response I got... "Well, try reselling AutoCAD" ...

Yes, I am still miffed. I just wonder how many people out there actually know about this policy. The policy has changed over the past 20 years. I am curious about when and how I actually AGREED to this policy. But, like everyone else here, I gloss of the EULA's. Apparently this policy changed around April this year. I am not clear how a company can sell me a product (asset) and then continue, after the fact, to create policy that removes all equity from it.

And the real questions is WHY? "How could it possibly cost $2000.00 to change a name and address in a database? To be fair (someone has to) $600 of it is a FORCED enrollment in the ArchiPLUS program. So at least the buyer will get the next upgrade (if it happens within a year).

Sorry for venting. I love ArchiCAD. I like the people that work there. I like my reseller. I just think this policy is WRONG. So on my tombstone will hang 2 ArchiCAD 12 keys (can't afford to upgrade any longer with this policy in place).

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Dwight — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:55:28 GMT

That is rough.

Sorry to hear about your slowdown.

We all think that we are buying a product when we are merely licensing a right to use it.

It got ambiguous with Graphisoft because, by not putting a time limit on the license, the licensee develops a myth of ownership.

At its most basic, there's NO residual value to a license.

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:37:00 GMT

Wow. I cannot believe that something such as the license transfer fee could be changed without any kind of announcement which would have given people like you time to sell your extra license before the new policy took effect, Duane. Sounds like fertile grounds for a law suit IMHO ... I would just file a small claims - which is basically free, and what is the chance that a GS US representative will show up in court to defend GS?

As far as I and anyone on these forums knew, the license transfer fee was $475. The only purpose of the fee was to change the ownership on Graphisoft US's records so that the buyer could purchase upgrades or subscriptions. If the buyer did not care about upgrading - well, they just used the key.

Now, I should ask what version is the key you are selling? If it is version 12, then I am as outraged as you. If it is version 9, for example, then I'm still outraged - but might see some of their logic. Until your note, you could sell an old key and, again, the buyer only had to pay the $475. If they wanted to keep using version 9, that was it. It seems that perhaps now they are forcing the buyer to upgrade to the current version and purchase a subscription?

Please clarify ... if this secret policy change is true, I certainly will not recommend ArchICAD to any new clients as I cannot support a company that makes policy changes like this without notification.

Cheers,
Karl

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

vfrontiers — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:44:24 GMT

Yes... I have two ArchiCAD 12 keys...

Duane

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

vfrontiers — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:49:14 GMT

I do not have the official Graphisoft Policy at hand, but this is what I was sent by my reseller. I have no reason to doubt this is the actually policy... Reseller is just a messenger here...

Duane,

Here the details on the ArchiCAD license transfer policy:

Cost - $2,095

* This fee includes the license registration cost ($1,400) and a new one-year subscription ($695). The new subscription is included as part of the transfer fee and cannot separated from the license key.

* Only current versions of ArchiCAD can be transferred. The existing license holder must upgrade to the current version prior to putting the license up for sale.

* The transfer includes a one-year ArchiPLUS subscription. The subscription fee is included in the license transfer fee paid by the new owner.

* Existing subscription is not transferable. If the transferred license is under subscription, this subscription is lost. Subscription is not transferable and not refundable.

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Chazz — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:58:19 GMT

Some history on this here:

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=19743&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=upgrade&&start=0

I agree that this is an outrageous change of policy and it will have major impact on user's bottom lines and their (our) sentiments towards GS. We are already heading towards a mandatory subscription upgrade model and now we are getting closer to a more pure, non-resale, license-only use model a la AutoCAD.

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Rakela Raul — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:51:26 GMT

im with you guys....disgusting GS !!
ductwork...maxonform..now this..getting dirty indeed

On a more decent note:

GS lower the cost of the software in the USA as i understood..
it used to be $4300 +- and now it is $3700 +- ..cheaper than MS and RV
i didnt dig that much but i think im right....

currently, for $4300 hundred you get ecodesigner included

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Chazz — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:57:54 GMT

Rakela wrote:
GS lower the cost of the software in the USA as i understood.

They pretty much always run a promotional sale just prior to the annual upgrade cycle. At lease here in the US. I don't think it points to an actual change to the price of the software which has remained unchanged for years.

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Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

TomWaltz — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:16:33 GMT

Wow.... evil like this is usually from Dogbert.

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:29:24 GMT

Wow. Thanks for the clarification, Duane.

I will not recommend that any potential new user purchase ArchiCAD until this policy changes...a policy that still is nowhere to be found, other than the email from your reseller.

This is evil and greedy, indeed.

Karl

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Ralph Wessel — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:33:22 GMT

Karl wrote:
I will not recommend that any potential new user purchase ArchiCAD until this policy changes...a policy that still is nowhere to be found, other than the email from your reseller.
This is evil and greedy, indeed.

Possibly illegal too - see a US court's take on Autodesk's licensing restrictions here

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

vfrontiers — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 00:07:08 GMT

Ralph wrote:
Karl wrote:
I will not recommend that any potential new user purchase ArchiCAD until this policy changes...a policy that still is nowhere to be found, other than the email from your reseller.
This is evil and greedy, indeed.
Possibly illegal too - see a US court's take on Autodesk's licensing restrictions here

That pretty much sums it up.. 2 points here.

1. I thought it was the goal of Graphisoft to make BETTER that which Autodesk mucked up.

2. The article dealt with the YES / NO version of resale. But the idea that the company can TAX the heck out of the proposed buyer might be a different story.

Thanks for the article....

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Anonymous — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:32:30 GMT

Were doomed!

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Erika Epstein — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:49:36 GMT

Duane,
Have you verified with Graphisoft that this is correct?

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

vfrontiers — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 03:16:54 GMT

Erika wrote:
Duane,
Have you verified with Graphisoft that this is correct?

As my only conduit to Graphisoft is my reseller... I suppose the answer to this is yes?..

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Erika Epstein — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:17:33 GMT

I was looking for something on the graphisoft site. My reseller just confirmed what you told us.

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Anonymous — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:20:31 GMT

I am not sure, but is this illegal in EU?

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Anonymous — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:00:09 GMT

Listen Folks!

(I am aware this might not be a popular view):

When we design a building (or whatever) for a client, we license them to use our design to produce that building. They do not own the design, or even the copies of the drawings. We retain the copyright.

They cannot sell-on our design to another without paying us.

We buy a licence from GS to use their software to make our product (building designs). We don't own the software or have any other rights to it.

Allowing us to sell-on a key at all is pretty generous. The debate is about how much GS should be paid to allow it. If you stop to think how important the software is to your business $2000 seems fair enough to me.

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Ralph Wessel — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:20:25 GMT

Samovar wrote:
When we design a building (or whatever) for a client, we license them to use our design to produce that building. They do not own the design, or even the copies of the drawings. We retain the copyright.
They cannot sell our design on to another without paying us.
We buy a licence from GS to use their software to make our product (building designs). We don't own the software or have any other rights to it.

If we follow this new licensing idea, we should be paid for the design again every time the original building is sold to a new owner. Are you paid repeatedly for your designs when the building changes hands?

A basic premise of fair trade is that a product or service you have paid for should be transferable by exchange to someone else. The key thing is that it must be a genuine transfer, i.e. you can't both sell it to someone else and keep it. If Graphisoft have been paid for a license, and that license remains in use by a single person, why should they be paid for it again? Are they adding some value to the transaction to justify the cost?

Re: I wish Graphisoft didn't surcharge resale buyers over $2

Anonymous — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:50:33 GMT

Ralph!

I see your argument but don't quite agree:

The product of the use-of-the-licence (to build our design) - ie the house - can be resold without paying us, just as we can sell our design for that house again, without paying GS (whose software we used to create the design).

Our work is the design, not the house. They cannot sell our design.

Incidentally, some artists are paid every time one of their works of art is resold, because of the conditions of sale. But then they have usually physically made the art, not just designed it.

The second-hand book and record market is not a good comparison because you buy the book/record for personal entertainment. If you want to use it to make a living (as a radio station say), you have to pay for performance rights as well as owning the physical record.

The main point is that we need GS to make a good living so they can develop and promote ArchiCAD to our advantage. This will be made far harder if they don't benefit from the thriving second-hand market; inevitable when times get tough. My hope is that fellow ArchiCAD users have a technical and competitive advantage so suffer less than others.

BTW - I love using your excellent modular joinery object - and I hope you were well paid!