topic Re: Are you a modeling whiz?? in Modeling

Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 20:29:08 GMT

How do you go about doing this? I've gotten everything to align well, but when I try and run the angled trim at the face of the dormer down it "effs" everything up.

I'm trying very hard to "model more, draw less" but sometimes it's frustrating!

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 20:34:54 GMT

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 21:01:26 GMT

I understand the sloping piece up the rake is actually a slightly different profile.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Steve Jepson — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 22:10:29 GMT

Are you modeling for schedules or just for the look of it in 3D ?

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 22:31:41 GMT

Cue Ralph Wessel...

OBJECTiVE

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 23:23:11 GMT

Hello Steven,
Please see this thread. It deals with several issues
related to rake and eave moldings.

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=103276&highlight=raking+molding#103276

Peter Devlin

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Aug 2011 03:00:46 GMT

The Wiki has an article showing one technique that uses the Shell tool -

http://www.archicadwiki.com/GableProfileWithShell

It would be much simpler if GS just allowed you to adjust the end angle of complex profiled beams like you can now with shells!

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Aug 2011 12:15:18 GMT

Steve wrote:
Are you modeling for schedules or just for the look of it in 3D ?

I'm modeling for the elevations, sections, etc. as well as the look in 3D.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Erwin Edel — Mon, 08 Aug 2011 14:54:55 GMT

Your best bet (in my experience) is to model the profiled trim with a seperate profile and put it on a different layer with a different layer intersectiongroup. This will stop the elements interacting with eachother.

Be sure to set the intersectiongroup number on all your layer combination, so that all your views clean up properly.

The only way I've been able to give angled beams a proper mitred cut, is by cutting the beams with a roof (giving the roof the mitre angle).

Luckily traditional roof / gutter detailing in NL isn't ussually detailed like this. Still, I've drafted intricate things before and sometimes I ended up going back to the old Profiler addon and just create objects. At least it's easier to get the mitred joints. It still only goes in one direction though, so you can't go around the bend in one go.

Hope that helped.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Aug 2011 16:25:23 GMT

Here is an example of a rake/crown miter. This was done with profiled "beams" which I ran past each other to prevent them automatically joining. I then used SEOs with slabs set at 45° to get the vertical cuts.

As others have mentioned the rake is a different profile from the crown and it is not just a simple stretch since vertical to horizontal relationships are affected differently by the rotation and the relative cut angle.

It is not possible in my experience to fake this detail in the field acceptably (I used to be a master carpenter). You need to either find or custom mill proper rake/crown pairs or use a different detail. A common practice is to have the rake die into a horizontal return of the entablature. It's not proper classical order but it looks better than trying to miter parts that don't fit.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Aug 2011 16:32:02 GMT

Peter wrote:
The Wiki has an article showing one technique that uses the Shell tool -

http://www.archicadwiki.com/GableProfileWithShell

It would be much simpler if GS just allowed you to adjust the end angle of complex profiled beams like you can now with shells!

While it is very cool what can be done with the shell tool the example shown in the Wiki makes a horizontal return first apparently to hide the fact the it will not make a proper miter with itself as a rake. This technique would still require two profiles.

I'll have to give it a try sometime to see if it has any advantages over the profiled beam method. Of course using beams provides a list of profiles that can then be reused (and easily quantified) through the rest of the project.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Steve Jepson — Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:07:15 GMT

What he wants to do ( as I understand it ) can not be done. Those profiles will never match that way. Perhaps I don't get it.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Steve Jepson — Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:11:15 GMT

Steven wrote:
Steve wrote:
Are you modeling for schedules or just for the look of it in 3D ?
I'm modeling for the elevations, sections, etc. as well as the look in 3D.

What I mean by schedules is material list. Do you need to be able to extract the data from your molding in to a schedule showing how many feet of each molding there is? This makes a difference in how things are modeled.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Aug 2011 23:52:13 GMT

Steve wrote:
What he wants to do ( as I understand it ) can not be done. Those profiles will never match that way. Perhaps I don't get it.

It cannot be done automatically but can be by the method I described. It does require making the matching crown and rake profiles (which is a bit tricky) and the vertical miter has to be cut by SEO (the auto-join fits to the bisector of the axes and cannot do the vertical cut).

Before there were profiled beams I used to do this with custom library parts but that is pretty advanced coding.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Steve Jepson — Tue, 09 Aug 2011 00:27:36 GMT

I don't think it is a matter of modeling.
I think it's a matter of geometry.
Those profiles don't look like they will match when mitered at those angles.

Perhaps Steven could post a file with the several profiles he wishes to join and tell us the angle of the roof pitch. ?

Steven,
Are you wanting to know how to make a profile for the gable end that will match the profile along the gutter when mitered?

This can be done. It's just that the profiles required to do this can not be the same.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Tue, 09 Aug 2011 00:45:45 GMT

Steve wrote:
It's not a matter of modeling.

Its' a matter of geometry.

Those profiles will not match when mitered at those angles.

Thats why it requires two molding profiles, with a different rake for each size/type of crown at each roof pitch angle.

Don't tell me it's not possible. I have done it in ArchiCAD and in the field and drawn and specified rake/crown sets for custom milling.

Of course the proper profiles are not available from the standard sources and most people will not go to the extra effort of getting the custom millwork done. Typically the detail will only be found in strict classical orders.

Unless there is the will to see it through to completion it is probably not worth the effort to detail it that way.

Steve: It looks like we've been doing concurrent edits and are actually in agreement on this.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Steve Jepson — Tue, 09 Aug 2011 02:26:59 GMT

Yes. We do agree that it is impossible for matching profiles to miter like that.

Here is how it can be done with two complementary profiles that will fit perfectly at the miter.

Slope of the roof is 12:12 in this examle. Both profiles are tilted away from the roof.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Steve Jepson — Tue, 09 Aug 2011 03:31:16 GMT

shaded view. These are not to scale but notice how different the profiles must be if they are to match at the miter.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Tue, 09 Aug 2011 03:35:03 GMT

Yup, we're on the same page. I see the extreme distortion of the rake to make it work at 12:12 pitch.

Re: Are you a modeling whiz??

Anonymous — Wed, 10 Aug 2011 14:50:13 GMT

Sorry, I wasn't getting notices of more posts...

Matthew wrote:
As others have mentioned the rake is a different profile from the crown and it is not just a simple stretch since vertical to horizontal relationships are affected differently by the rotation and the relative cut angle.

It is not possible in my experience to fake this detail in the field acceptably (I used to be a master carpenter). You need to either find or custom mill proper rake/crown pairs or use a different detail. A common practice is to have the rake die into a horizontal return of the entablature. It's not proper classical order but it looks better than trying to miter parts that don't fit.

Yes I understand and agree completely.