topic Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file in Modeling

Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Anonymous — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 23:47:57 GMT

I have a client for which I did a small residential remodeling project for and I generated an archicad 11 file with the Kitchen, Great Room, Entry, Dining Room, etc. all with custom materials, textures, objects, lighting and full framing / construction, etc. The client is pretty cheap and was always trying to get something for nothing. I had saved out many 3D rendered images of the different areas with furniture and ceiling conditions until the client was pleased with everything.

I completed the project and the client obtained a permit and started on construction. Recently, I received a phone call from the Contractor (who claims to be an ArchiCAD user) and he wants me to "give" him my ArchiCAD model file so they can "look at the 3D views and come up with other ceiling options." In my opinion, this is what the client should pay me to do with him (btw, I bill hourly with a "not to exceed" figure so however much time it takes or changes the client wants, he pays for them. If it goes fast, then they don't pay as much- but it's not a fixed per project fee and it's pretty modest).

I am hesitant to release my file to the contractor, especially when it sounds like the client has changed their mind after the fact and is trying to circumvent paying me to make changes. The contractor was getting all huffy with me and couldn't understand why I wouldn't just give him the file. Am I being unreasonable? This is a private client, not a city or government project. What are others' policies on releasing the ArchiCAD file to clients or contractors in this type of situation?

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Karl Ottenstein — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:25:48 GMT

2Random wrote:
... Recently, I received a phone call from the Contractor (who claims to be an ArchiCAD user) and he wants me to "give" him my ArchiCAD model file so they can "look at the 3D views and come up with other ceiling options." In my opinion, this is what the client should pay me to do with him (btw, I bill hourly with a "not to exceed" figure so however much time it takes or changes the client wants, he pays for them.

...The contractor was getting all huffy with me and couldn't understand why I wouldn't just give him the file. Am I being unreasonable?

You are absolutely not being unreasonable IMHO. Presumably you had an understanding, if not a written contract, specifying the 'deliverables' for the project. If the model was not part of that, there can be no expectation that you would deliver it ... and certainly not deliver it without an additional fee.

If they insist that they want the model, and not to have you do more revisions for some reason, then you could consider figuring out some price to attach to it. But, again IMHO, you should cover yourself for liability since the model was no doubt adequate for construction documents but may not be perfect in other ways. There may be some ideas in the AIA BIM documents:
http://www.aiacontractdocuments.org/bim/

Hope you reach a smooth resolution.

Karl

[Edited: typos]

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Richard Morrison — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 02:02:33 GMT

I agree with Karl, but I probably would not be as generous.

1) You have no obligation to the contractor at all. He is not your client and you have no duty to facilitate his redoing YOUR design behind your back and taking away your prospective fees.

2) Unless you give him a very stripped-down model, you would be giving away a lot of hard work that he could then reuse on other projects of his own, for free. (i.e. you would be giving him your own office "template.") This has happened to me.

3) If he WERE an experienced ArchiCAD user, he could recreate the spaces in question, probably in a matter of minutes.

In short, I would feel fine about just saying, "no." (Although I might say it in capital letters.)

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Erich — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 02:15:39 GMT

I completely agree with Karl and Richard as well.

If you still think you might hand over the model, talk with your lawyer first as I am certain they will have a lot to say about such a practice and the liability you expose yourself to in the process. Your insurance company may also have things to say about this.

Follow Nancy Regan's advice...just say no.

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Dwight — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 05:50:35 GMT

Sometimes folks get to thinking they own what they don't, just because they gave you some money for something.

I had a similar experience to you when asked for a model that I developed to produce a moulding catalog. The client decided that the graphic designer of the catalog could do a cheaper job than i did, so I got the call.
"Just send over the model, eh?"

I advised them that the cheese had fallen from their biscuit.

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Anonymous — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:39:22 GMT

If you type into Google the keywords "instruments of service"
you will find several discussions that relate to this issue.
Peter Devlin

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Jefferson — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:59:44 GMT

Sounds like all advice is in the same direction, as it should be..............

I did a remodel project a while back for a client who had earlier done work with an Autocad based architect on the same structure. When the client asked for a copy or the autocad file, to expedite my process, [it was the site plan I was hoping for ], and save the client money they were told the electronic file was proprietary and would not be available.

Sounded good to me then and and still does. Electronic files belong solely to you

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Steve Jepson — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 20:56:06 GMT

never give them the CAD files!

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Mark Wallace — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:37:43 GMT

Steve wrote:
never give them the CAD files!

DITTO!

The same old saw, only with different words......Let's see;

In the late 60's was 'Sepias.'

In the late 70's it was 'Mylar Reproducibles.'

In the late 80's it was 'Vellum Reproducibles' from a large format copying machine.

In the late 90's it started out as a CAD file until folks like your contractor discovered how many flavors of CAD there really is (Giving then an excuse to dis you in other ways)!

If they want a 'CAD' file.....give 'em a PDF; And only after you get paid for your efforts!

And with some creatively diplomatic patience and persurverance, you too can manage your client and contractor. Afterall, the contractor is not the design professional (Although he thinks he is )

The thing is to get paid and don't give your work away.

Good Luck!

Mark

ArchiCAD 12 2675 USA Full + 11, 10, 9 & 7, Mac G5 Dual 2.3 Ghz, 1.5 Gb, OSX.4.11, HP T1100, Epson R1800

Mark R. Wallace AIA
---------------------------------------
Mark Wallace Architect
Collegeville, PA

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Steve Jepson — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:49:08 GMT

Yes. PDF And they only get a locked copy of that.
The Adobe Acrobat has very good security options that can require digital signatures and passwords to even see the documents.

They can review the locked copy with my invoice. If they pay the bill I will send them the password to unlock the file, but I can still control what they can do with the file. What layers they can see, No print, No edit, No copy, etc....

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Rafal SLEK — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:51:32 GMT

2Random wrote:
...he wants me to "give" him my ArchiCAD model file so they can "look at the 3D views and come up with other ceiling options."

It is job for Virtual Building Explorer. It is easy to sell VBE file as CAD model, since it use layers, some options for ceiling could be prepared earlier.

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Jere — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 00:26:29 GMT

Steve wrote:
Yes. PDF And they only get a locked copy of that.
The Adobe Acrobat has very good security options that can require digital signatures and passwords to even see the documents.

They can review the locked copy with my invoice. If they pay the bill I will send them the password to unlock the file, but I can still control what they can do with the file. What layers they can see, No print, No edit, No copy, etc....

I allow my clients the option to print. After all, that's what they've paid us for. However, the document is otherwise protected (no editting, copying, etc.) My reasoning is that they can otherwise just make photocopies of the hardcopies.

I'll modify this policy based on the client though. I'm more strict with residential clients.

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Steve Jepson — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:40:42 GMT

Actually, all some of us are selling is the right to use the plans for one project only. We are not selling them them any copy rights at all.
The plans can be provide on paper that can not be copied either.
They will have to trace it to steal it.

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

TomWaltz — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:30:43 GMT

Given the situation described, with no prior contract agreements about providing the model, I'd be hesitant too.

A lot of the Integrated Project Delivery stuff going on now requires model sharing between all the parties on the project, but the legal entities and fees involved are very, very different.

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Anonymous — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:05:06 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
Given the situation described, with no prior contract agreements about providing the model, I'd be hesitant too.

A lot of the Integrated Project Delivery stuff going on now requires model sharing between all the parties on the project, but the legal entities and fees involved are very, very different.

IPD might work in commercial (most likely large) projects, where building the same hospital without designer is impossible, but in the world of residential architecture it is plain stupid. I have seen it a lot of times where GC just copied set of drawings and issued for different client.

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Rick Thompson — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:52:39 GMT

There is a huge difference in the residential and commercial market. Being residential you can point him to any online plan service (including mine) and he can see there is a premium fee for CAD files. It is also the state of the industry to supply CAD file, like it of not, for an additional fee. Of course, it should be stated, if you ever do provide CAD files, if they have the the right to modify them or not. Typically, if you do give them the right to modify them, they must note the modifications and the liabilities are then assumed. I place my copyright info on all plan, and that they are "Standard Contract Documents". That is the legal way to draw a line as to any additional modifications. I have been doing this for years (25 - 30) and have never had an issue.

Again, like it of not, the residential industry is based on this. It is just not reality to custom design a home for every instance... so people like CAD files and a release and/or reuse fee agreement. Often contractors need the files for engineering and what not. I too would agree that if they are trying to take advantage of you, then that is another story. But, it is normal these days, and normally agreed upon up front... and charged for.

Am I stupid

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Anonymous — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:44:54 GMT

Thanks everyone for you input and suggestions. I feel a lot better about turning the contractor down- he really was starting to try to "bully" me into just giving him the file.

I've only been using ArchiCAD for a couple of years now so my contract always referred to AutoCAD files as being proprietary and that if the client wanted the AutoCAD file he could pay an additional fee (and it would only be the stripped down base file- no details, etc.).

This is the first issue that I've run into with ArchiCAD specifically, it just seems like lately everyone is trying to get "something for nothing" and screw me over in the process!

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 07:38:50 GMT

Do not give the client any CAD files!
Several years ago when when everything was hand drawn you did not give the originals, did you? Now your CAD file is the original.
Locked PDF is the only option I use.

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:42:54 GMT

Just to add a cent to the post,
I would not trust to much on PDF security issue:

http://www.scs.cmu.edu/~dst/Adobe/Gallery/PDFsecurity.pdf

I did not test any of those but there are even tools that claim to do that:

http://www.a-pdf.com/security/restrictions_remover.htm

Want to be 99% sure? Send a raster instead

Re: Client / Contractor request for ArchiCAD model file

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:50:32 GMT

Yes, PDF's passwords can be broken but then you'll get just lines and fills. If you send the model, you send walls, slabs, Library parts, template, materials, etc.