topic Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD in Modeling

Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

JaredBanks — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:14:27 GMT

Anyone have any advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD? I've found that the sooner a new user starts focusing on using ArchiCAD as ArchiCAD and not trying to use it like a former drafting program, the better. This is much easier done when the previous program the user knew was AutoCAD. I find there's more resistance with REVIT. "Well in REVIT if I did this it'd work. Why can't this program function exactly like that?" I'm hoping that I can point out some things that happen in the early stages of modeling to help highlight the joys of working in ArchiCAD v11. So far some of the things I've mentioned haven't left this user that impressed...

Thoughts? Teaching techniques you've used?

Thanks.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Dwight — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:47:44 GMT

Recite this:

"Quit whining and learn Archicad or find another job in these recessive times, even if Obama will fix things before Easter."

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

JaredBanks — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:01:21 GMT

Dwight wrote:
Recite this:

"Quit whining and learn Archicad or find another job in these recessive times, even if Obama will fix things before Easter."

Dwight! Always a fountain of wisdom. Thanks for reminding me not to doubt my instincts. I never had trouble getting that message across with former Autocad users. I don't know much REVIT, so my internal monologue doesn't as readily see the flaws in the whining. Not that that is a good excuse.

Any other thoughts non-hostile?

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Ignacio Azpiazu — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:43:40 GMT

Never been in that situation but I think the 'interactive tutorials' http://www.graphisoft.com/products/archicad/training_guides/ are a great resource.

They can do them in private, at their own pace, and my understanding is that AC is that they will find that more user-friendly, responsive and productive than Revit.

Also the tutorials themselves, with the movies and the fairly cool buildings, are as pleasant an experience as a tutorial can get.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Dwight — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:46:36 GMT

When CAD first arrived and fellows were being turfed off drafting boards and given a 'typewriter' and a 'television,' I heard of entire offices being switched in a weekend the staff came into the office on Monday and it was "Sink or Swim."

With regard to your guy, tell him you'd love a report on REVIT. Done on his own time.

It really doesn't matter if he thinks REVIT is better or not, but that he should learn the firm's way of doing things and see if he still thinks that way after six months.... since implementation is everything.

My neighbor is a successful architect of large residences. He still drafts by hand and is not a geezer. He said the firm he left implemented CAD and their "cost per sheet of drawings" increased twofold. I had never seen architectural work costed like that so i was surprised, but yeah, different values lead to different solutions.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

JaredBanks — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:11:48 GMT

I wonder if that neighbor's firm still has a cost per sheet that is double that of hand drawing? I think a similar thing definitely happens after the switch to BIM from 2D (and eventually we'll have some hand drafting to BIM switchers, so what is that like a quadrupling of costs, yikes!)

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Dwight — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:23:50 GMT

Anyone here knows that "measuring the cost of drafting" per sheet is insane.

But it shows how hard it is to measure productivity in an architectural firm [and the quality of data on those sheets].

If i was still drafting based, I would be lamenting, instead, the loss of revenue from shadow casting studies that took a week of descriptive geometry to execute and now gets done automatically over coffee break.

The way i see it is you need smarter people to operate Archicad if productivity is to increase.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

JaredBanks — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:42:28 GMT

Unfortunately I think the initial bottom line is over-stressed and can add pressure to the switch. Life-cycle analysis anyone? I think anyway it's measured once people are using ArchiCAD competently it's going to best 2D and hand drafting on all accounts. But there are those metrics that AC just flat loses at the beginning. And that goes back to both our original posts. If a new user judges ArchiCAD on how it imitates REVIT, then it's always going to lose. Kind of like arguing the merits of religion with someone who doesn't accept your position on the subject.

Do you really think a typical user needs to be smarter to have productivity increased in AC? Is this suggesting that for some (many), the switch to BIM just might not be worth it? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I've got to think about that. It's an interesting question and a ways off of my original post. And perhaps a little dangerous to discuss.

I worked at a firm once that constantly talked about hours per sheet.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Richard Morrison — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:03:29 GMT

JaredBanks wrote:
I worked at a firm once that constantly talked about hours per sheet.

This discussion depends on how your firm is billing. As Dwight alluded to, if your firm is billing "by the hour," then you want the slowest possible production system. If your firm is billing by a fixed fee, then you want the fastest. You might want to consider getting people to watch the video webcast on the Master Template system http://www.archicadtemplate.com/ .

While some things are a little slow for "sales" purposes, it is pretty good at getting people to see what's possible within ArchiCAD as far as quickly producing a set of construction docs. Maybe you should preview it first, though.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Dwight — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:03:37 GMT

And you moved on. Proves smartness already.

My notion is that:

BIM in general needs smarter, more focused people because there are more balls to juggle. You need to be calm and methodical from the get-go when the knee jerk reaction is to "just make a sketch. [And work it out later]"

Another problem we have in architecture is a truncated delegation pyramid. The billing pyramid gets kneecapped when BIM comes along since guys who don't know anything make kaka when they model. So it is harder to direct juniors. In the old days, fellows could learn making door schedules and other simple things while watching the real guys work - what a guy could do on the boards was a lot clearer than now.

In "LightWorks in Archicad" i refer to "Mechanic's Mind" and "Artist's Mind" as opposing qualities conflicting in architecture. To be really productive in Archicad requires a handle on both the technics of a structure and its design implications. You need to firmly hold both handles and still be able to work the keyboard and mousie! Tell me THAT doesn't need extra talent, or limbs!!

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

JaredBanks — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:31:22 GMT

Wow. Lots to respond to and think about. I'm glad I asked my question this morning. Richard, thanks for giving me something to watch on Saturday while there's a baby shower going on in my house and I need to be out of the way. Dwight, I haven't taken a look at Lightworks in ArchiCAD in a long time. My old firm had a copy. But what you say does ring a bell. And I definitely agree with it.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Mats_Knutsson — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:51:37 GMT

Dwight wrote:
And you moved on. Proves smartness already.

My notion is that:

BIM in general needs smarter, more focused people because there are more balls to juggle. You need to be calm and methodical from the get-go when the knee jerk reaction is to "just make a sketch. [And work it out later]"

Another problem we have in architecture is a truncated delegation pyramid. The billing pyramid gets kneecapped when BIM comes along since guys who don't know anything make kaka when they model. So it is harder to direct juniors. In the old days, fellows could learn making door schedules and other simple things while watching the real guys work - what a guy could do on the boards was a lot clearer than now.

In "LightWorks in Archicad" i refer to "Mechanic's Mind" and "Artist's Mind" as opposing qualities conflicting in architecture. To be really productive in Archicad requires a handle on both the technics of a structure and its design implications. You need to firmly hold both handles and still be able to work the keyboard and mousie! Tell me THAT doesn't need extra talent, or limbs!!

AMEN!!! Very well written!

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Mats_Knutsson — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:31:37 GMT

JaredBanks wrote:
Anyone have any advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD? I've found that the sooner a new user starts focusing on using ArchiCAD as ArchiCAD and not trying to use it like a former drafting program, the better. This is much easier done when the previous program the user knew was AutoCAD. I find there's more resistance with REVIT. "Well in REVIT if I did this it'd work. Why can't this program function exactly like that?" I'm hoping that I can point out some things that happen in the early stages of modeling to help highlight the joys of working in ArchiCAD v11. So far some of the things I've mentioned haven't left this user that impressed...

Thoughts? Teaching techniques you've used?

Thanks.

I've done it once. There was basically one thing that bothered the Revit users in the beginning and it was that they didn't have to connect things the same way. It was a simple wall-to-slab thing. After explaining ArchiCADs approach (marquee, groups, SEO etc) to handling the model with parametric behaviour it was a pretty easy ride for them. It was a two day training and they got the basic modeling part within a couple of hours. This was like I said one case two years ago. We didn't go into the most relevant parts, CDs because these guys were visualization modelers and not engineers/architects.

Quote: "Well in XXX if I did this it'd work"...yes of course! Stupid comment that speaks for itself really (whatever software behind XXX...). The Swedish saying is that you can't teach old dogs to sit...

My best advice is to begin with explaining the overall picture. Features are not interesting before you get the overall picture...this is crucial to all BIM-wannabe-tools. Think total workflow. Revit has some nice features, ArchiCAD has some nice features, even MS Word has some nice features...but if you are talking BIM the overall picture is the one important thing.

/Mats

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

JaredBanks — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:27:09 GMT

Mats_Knutsson wrote:
There was basically one thing that bothered the Revit users in the beginning and it was that they didn't have to connect things the same way.

YES! I am definitely hearing this. It's great to hear how universal the comments and issues are. Tells me that the solutions should be fairly similar too.

Thanks.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Brad Elliott — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:30:51 GMT

My experience is that people switching computer programs, especially similar ones, tend to hate the re-learning process for the first couple of weeks. After all you are asking them to take a developed skill and asking them to throw it away for a new one. It would be like asking an old hand draftsman to start using the opposite hand. The human brain does not like to re-learn a skill.

A slightly softer response than Dwight's is to let them know you expect them to dislike that they have to learn a new program and they get a couple of weeks free to complain, but they need to be constructive complaints or everybody's just wasting their time. Eat your cereal and drink your coffee with the opposite hand so you can be sympathetic to their plight.

It also helps if you have a good template and an understandable process so people can see the logic in what you are doing and believe at the end they will have a real product.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Dwight — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:23:16 GMT

I am quite bitter about this issue since, in 1995, I went into an office with SONATA. The firm had spent $250,000 on five UNIX work stations and the program, stolen away their British support guy to join the office as ubergeek and it was a bad program.

"Archicad? haha. That's kid stuff."

Tool: Fifteen inch display, sixteen colors. lines against black background. stick font, only one of the five machines had a graphics card for rendering and the operator [the ubergeek] was color blind [not making this up].

Eight letter codes for each layer and a layer was manipulated vertically by dragging it on a z - axis matrix to change building elevation/story. We kept track of library parts made with eight letter codes in a big notebook because there was no way to view the library.

I had been using Archicad for three years by then so i took my project home and cranked out a building model for 42 dwelling units with perspectives and suite floor areas and net to gross, etc, all calculated over a weekend. They were impressed. I was relieved.

"Of course you can transfer this into Sonata?"

Send DXF to the SONATA program? Sure. Arcs all turned into coarse line segments, etc.
What a mess.

It was so hard to go backwards, and none of my Archicad strategies could be used in such a primitive system. I felt lost.

Then i realized that nobody expected me to be productive like i was in Archicad. No one knew what you could do..... and no one else was being productive. And i started helping the ubergeek with his colors, and started asking him to make things for me in their crude code language [a cowboy hat-like canopy over a Kuala Lumpur pedestrian bridge being one of them]. Things got easier.

Thank you Sonata for teaching me how to delegate.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:07:50 GMT

I have switched several local designers over to Archicad from Autocad and all were happy. What I did was show them the basics and actually walked them thru a small project normally a garage and build on that. When I say basics I mean basic, no composit walls or roofs that can come with experience and when walked them thru I sat with them for entire time, so be prepaired to spend time with them don't throw them onto the fire of a mega story project . I also made myself available for calls for a couple of weeks. One example of the beniffits of teaching someone else is that I was self taught on archicad and they often would ask autocad does this can archicad and after a little looking we often find that it does so I learn as well.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:43:06 GMT

ron wrote:
I have switched several local designers over to Archicad from Autocad and all were happy.

I have found switching people from AutoCAD to be relatively easy. There are lots of ways ArchiCAD is more fun and productive. Revit is another matter.

For one thing, it can do most of what ArchiCAD does but the approach is very different. This reduces the reward for effort ratio considerably.

Another problem is that Revit does a lot of things automatically that make it easier for many to get into the modeling aspects. This also leads to many of Revit's limitations and frustrations when compared to ArchiCAD but most of these differences show up at intermediate to advanced levels. Revit users come to expect the automatic functions and will be frustrated by ArchiCAD's relative lack of them.

Finally Revit's interface is more basic. There are fewer things to learn since everything is made of families. There is a single browser to navigate with and the properties dialogs all behave pretty much the same. Add two toolbars and that's four basic interface elements. There is also typically only one way to do any particular task. ArchiCAD's profusion of palettes and variety of methods for accomplishing similar (or the same) tasks can make it quite confusing by comparison.

There are lots of ways that ArchiCAD is superior but these can be difficult to demonstrate to a new user. It is certainly best if you have clear and well documented standards and templates to make the transition/training process smoother. ArchiCAD features to show off are the info palette, the pet palette and the marquee tool. Revit has nothing to really compare to these. ArchiCAD's Navigator (Project Map/View Editor/Layout Manager/Publisher) is quite superior to Revit's Browser in my opinion. I also find ArchiCAD's snaps, locks, constraints and numerical entry to be much more fluid and flexible than Revit, but a new user will miss Revit's auto-snap to similar elements (kind of like Apple's Pages) which is great when it does what you want.

In the end I think the only answer is to say that both programs have their strengths but that your guy will have to learn the software that the firm uses and that some complaining is understandable but too much is counterproductive.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

JaredBanks — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:13:40 GMT

Matthew,

Great post. Thanks. AutoCAD to ArchiCAD is nothing like REVIT to ArchiCAD. The REVIT 'does this or that automatically' is a huge hurdle to deal with. Humorously I started reading your post while on the phone with my ex-REVIT user and everything you wrote is spot on. Talking with him reinforces that it would be great to have the time to clean up all the basic fills and materials (in addition to the rest of our template stuff). I do get the impression that a lot of people just want the program to be able to read their minds. I guess REVIT 2009 does that? Or will that not be until REVIT 2011? Thanks again for the input.

Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 22:57:56 GMT

Ahh, i have been looking for a post like this one. thank you for writing it. As my signature points out, i am a former revit user struggling with ArchiCAD and it is nice to hear a discussion on the matter. To preface my post, i will admit that i have not received formal training in ArchiCAD due to the budget restraints of the new office that i am working. However, i am a good at learning programs by using them and reading their manuals. To contrast my lake of training in ArchiCAD, i have received excellent training in Revit, backed up with 2yrs or experience using the program.

I have only been using ArchiCAD for the last 3 months, and probably have not given it enough time to impress me. That being said, the person i work with on the project has been using it for a year and still dose not enjoy it or find it to live up to the hype, so i have good reason to be pessimistic at this point.

I really want to talk to Dwight, you mentioned how your office switched to "Sonata". I was still in Highschool in '95 so i never heard of the program, but your situation sound very similar to the one i am in. As a young intern, i know it is not truly my place to suggest software changes to a firm, however, as you felt that Sonata was an inferior program to ArchiCAD; I feel that ArchiCAD is inferior to Revit. Now i know it is not so simple to say that, and the case could be made for the reverse, but for me, with 2yrs experience and a ton of training in Revit, it just makes sense to me.
My question to you would be; what would you do in my shoes?
Given that we are a 4 man firm, only 2 of which are drafting and of those 2 drafters 100% do not like using ArchiCAD to a great extent. Would you recommend that I show the ambition that you had to do a project on your own time in Revit and turn it in to my Principle?

I hope this gives you a glimpse into the mind frame of the Revit users you are trying to convert, it is much like that of Dwight and Sonata.

PS,
In the future, it helps to be kind to new users, and former Revit users, posting on the forums. I have seen and received a lot of rude replies to legitimate questions. (well most of the rude replies i received were deserved) but a little bit of empathy goes a long way to how ppl perceive the program you are supporting.