topic Re: 3D Model Pricing in Modeling

3D Model Pricing

Anonymous — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:51:15 GMT

Can anyone point me in the right direction on places where I can find information on correct pricing for 3D models?

My job surveys existing structures and develops a 3D model for firms to use for renovations, additions etc. The problem is, the higher ups that are quoting pricing for the job are stumped on what to charge. We usually severely under price a job and it just hurts us in the long run.

I am trying to educate myself so I can in turn educate them on what proper pricing or ball park figures would be for large undertakings so they won't charge the 2D CAD prices they are familiar with.

Links, articles, books, experience? Any of these and a direction would be helpful.

Thanks

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Erika Epstein — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:47:46 GMT

Start by analyzing the modeling jobs you have done to develop estimates of how long it will take you to model.
Think through the steps you go through modeling e.g.

-Set up file(s): modify template for job, set up job specific attributes such as layers, composites etc.
Site model: Site mesh, roads etc.
Building model:Exterior walls, floors, interior walls, doors, windows...cabinetry.

You need to know to what level of detail you will be developing the model.

HTH

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Anonymous — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:52:26 GMT

We already do all of that to come up with the price they usually quote. I did get a price round about from a free lance and he said:

Since there doesn't seem to be an established rate, I will tell you what I would charge...

Simple model (Slabs, Walls, Roofs) = $0.15/sf
Intermediate detail (w/ built-ins and rough casework) = $0.25/sf
Detailed (with accurate casework and trim) = $0.35/sf
True BIM model = $0.45/sf

But I think that I would probably apply a sliding discount pricing schedule adjusted by model size.

Of course, I have almost 0 overhead. What they need to do is factor-in your salary (/hr wage) + overhead + targeted profit and apply it to your estimation of how many man-hours it will take to complete the model. Once they have an accurate estimate then they can nail-down a /sf rate.

Based on what he said the model I spoke of in the previous post should have cost $36,750. We charged $7000.

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Erika Epstein — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:58:39 GMT

What did it actually cost for you to model the $7000 job?

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Anonymous — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:01:32 GMT

It took 4 weeks at a 60k salary. If I had all my objects created on time and the information to me on time and a clear scope, which were all absent. I could have done it in 3 weeks.

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Erika Epstein — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:12:38 GMT

60K; that translates to$1154/week.
4 weeks = $4615 <$7000

So why did your company loose money on this job? What costs are not included in the above?

You are missing overhead, what is your multiplier? Or is your overhead taken out of your salary?
What other costs (other employee time) costs?
Reimbursable project specific expenses separate.
What other project costs are you not factoring in?

You can only estimate what you know about. Your estimate will be based on something, clarify that. Changes and clarifications extra and hourly.

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Anonymous — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:22:07 GMT

That time did not include the other workers QC time, or meetings. We didn't lose on the project, they just randomly threw out a number and we lucked out on making a small profit.

The obstacle is trying to figure out of we are pricing right or way under. Is it worth using all your resources of a company to barely make a profit and limp along? I know the climate out there is tough but if 4 firms are quoting 20k for the job I spoke of and we quoted 7k....seems to be too large of a gap or a disconnect from the "standard". I just used 20k as an example.

Our firm is not owned or run by architects or people with experience in it and they are relying on us to do what I have, explore options to see if we are in line or way off base.

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Anonymous — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:20:20 GMT

Don't forget the exposure to liability. Who pays if inaccuracies in the model lead to costs in the field? These costs can be many times larger than the modeling fees. Does your insurance cover you for this?

This gets to the issue of the "standard of care" which was the topic of the AGC BIM Forum last October. The upshot from the lawyers on what this all means was "nobody knows". There is little to no case law for BIM so we are all riding bareback to some degree.

If you are not making profits to compensate for the risk you are exposing yourselves to future liabilities just to put food on the table.

Re: 3D Model Pricing

rob2218 — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:57:27 GMT

what to charge for "modeling a BIM" model is an on-going debate. there is no set rule for price per square foot or anything like that.
you will simply have to throw a number up, see if it sticks and hope you don't lose yer arse in the process.

As far as the liability, same thing. if the model is going to be taken by a contractor to do take offs, then the contractor must make sure he checks his work, asks questions if he finds 3 overlapping slab objects on to of each other for example......it's also the contractors responsibility to check the information.

As far as a rate for the BIM model, you guess is as good as mine.

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Anonymous — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 06:18:10 GMT

JLKilgore wrote:
We already do all of that to come up with the price they usually quote. I did get a price round about from a free lance and he said:

Since there doesn't seem to be an established rate, I will tell you what I would charge...
Simple model (Slabs, Walls, Roofs) = $0.15/sf
Intermediate detail (w/ built-ins and rough casework) = $0.25/sf
Detailed (with accurate casework and trim) = $0.35/sf
True BIM model = $0.45/sf
Based on what he said the model I spoke of in the previous post should have cost $36,750. We charged $7000.

Check your rates and units
2D-$/m2
3D-$/m2 & m3
Then you need to apply an independent method, Chances are 2D=>3D or 3D=>2D your data/results could be corrupted.Then use convergence techniques all 3 methods should yeild simmilar results.Sorry, if it doesnt make sense,but think of it this way...the more tools you have the easier it becomes to find errors and then optimize profit while minimizing risk.
Interesting topic,Hmm but the answers wont be found on this board amongst architects...try Cost engineers for there 2D approach,Unfortunately QS's struggle with the math.HTH

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Rob — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 07:12:25 GMT

BDC you are on the watch list... stop trolling this forum...

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Anonymous — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 07:54:30 GMT

Rob wrote:
BDC you are on the watch list... stop trolling this forum...

LOL...Well Im on everybodies watch list
without fear or favour ;>)
and you are watching me thru those goggles,
Well I think you might be out of your depth here and that snorkle
wont help you,but feel free to contribute you might learn something...so might I-HTH

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Anonymous — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:04:41 GMT

rob2218 wrote:
As far as the liability, same thing. if the model is going to be taken by a contractor to do take offs, then the contractor must make sure he checks his work, asks questions if he finds 3 overlapping slab objects on to of each other for example......it's also the contractors responsibility to check the information.

The issue is not with quantity take offs. No estimator I know is willing to trust someone else's model for this - only as a double check for traditional methods.

The issue is in construction coordination where one misplaced wall or one undersized beam can lead to thousands or tens of thousands in rework. To say the contractor must check the information is not realistic. This assumes they have the necessary skills, and even then the time to fully check the model is not much less than to build it in the first place.

In the case of handing off a model for others' use the only realistic approach is to get a waiver of liability so that you can't be held responsible later on for something that has left your control. Of course it is probably advisable to check with your attorneys on the language and enforceability of such terms. Finally there is the question of whether this waiver reduces or negates the value of the model from the client's point of view.

Re: 3D Model Pricing

rob2218 — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:23:18 GMT

I'm sure in the next decade or two...you'll see a course being taught at colleges called "BIM Law"....because there is definitely a different mindset which needs to be applied to a BIM model database vs. a DWG cad file.

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Rakela Raul — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 14:27:36 GMT

i have seen a budget of 200,000 for what i would do for 40,000 ..
i think the 7000 dls job was really 2 or 3 times that... then another problem
comes up..since you have the model... do you charge for 'vistas' ? how much ? the model is already done !! how much is the artistic part ??
etc...it gets blurry to me
engineering models are 4 times what we think is right, a fact

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Anonymous — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 14:39:11 GMT

The model I spoke of was a 4 story main building with two large wings on either side. In the center was a 2 story auditorium with seating, angled floor and curved balconies. Walls, doors, windows, stairs, fixtures, electrical, ceilings, basement, heating tunnel system, fire fixtures and built in lockers were included as well. We also added floor to floor framing with consisted of about 40 different beam types.

It turned out to be a nice model but it just felt underpriced for what it was.

A PDF of the model is on my linkedin.com profile where the files are located. It is the Linden McKinley PDF. There are several views of the model included in the PDF.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/leekilgore

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Anonymous — Thu, 31 Dec 2009 21:31:49 GMT

I haven't had a chance to look at the model on your linkedin site, but based on your description of the job it sounds like a lot of work and liability for 7k. My gut feeling is that you should have been able to get twice that. Just a guess though.

Re: 3D Model Pricing

Anonymous — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 21:25:43 GMT

3D model price is... Humm what is the maximum i can take from you ....
.. depending how rich you are .....