topic About piracy & stuff in Modeling

About piracy & stuff

stefan — Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:19:43 GMT

I'm not advocating piracy, let that be clear. I use a full ArchiCAD for which I paid a lot of money (about 1,5x the American price, to be more precisely). And I'm now working in an academic environment, where we also have a strict policy of only using legal software (we do get discounts, though).

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For some reason I just had a mail on my hotmail-account which is an add for all things illegal. It announces:

ArchiCAD v8.1 R1 INTERNATIONAL - GraphiSoft, LIBRARIES, and Addons 2002
- 2003 ... AV_works, ProSite, Plan2Model, ArchiFacade, ArchiForma,
ArchiRuler, ArchiSketchy, ArchiTabula,
ArchiTerra, ArchiTiles, ArchiTime, ArchiWall - new !

I'm not going to give anyone links to these, so don't mail me about this. I also did not try to download any of it either, so don't know if it is the "real stuff", but I have some remarks, which I think are "viable" on this list, as a concerned user:

"Every single program on this planet is available as an illegal copy". The more popular, the easier it gets. In most cases, demo-versions that have temporary full functionality, are easy to "convert" into full versions. Almost every program that uses a hardware lock is easy to circumvent. Even the rather complex software licenses, using registration that is unique to a single computer, can be fixed. They just make some tool to generate valid licenses.

In most cases, the people doing this claim that the software is not protected very well. FlexLM and cdilla are often said to be not sufficient. I even know of a guy who gives a tutorial on cracking his own software, but changing on bit in the executable (and the funny thing is that he used Photoshop to just paint two pixels black on the raw data of the executable).

In the case of highly popular tools, they are fixed before they are even officially released.

Now what is my problem?

We, as legal users of these software, suffer the most of it. We invest in expensive tools to get our jobs done. We do hope that in some way this investment pays for itself. In my case it didn't, since I switched to a non-commercial job before the Return-Of-Investment point, but I can live with that.
But the use of all these protections matters are getting problematic. A few examples:

- We use an engineering application at our CAD-courses for the architecture students, called ESA PT. Almost every day, there is some student seeking help since the classroom-software boots in demo-version. We have constant problems with the license server. The software is brand new and was just updated to be able to run on Windows XP.

- I have an ArchiCAD USB dongle. When you uninstall ArchiCAD (before upgrading to a newer version) the Wibu-software gets wiped out and this requires a reboot. Then you install the new version & you need to do a new reboot before the dongle can be found. Even then, I sometimes have problems to boot my rather expensive software, because the lock cannot be found. (I still wonder why USB is called plug and play, when you need to install software, reboot and then plug it in before it can be properly "detected").

- I also use Autodesk VIZ which uses the cdilla-software protection that is also used in max and AutoCAD (the standalone versions, not the network licenses).
I've did a few re-installs of the OS (some on purpose, some after virus-problems) and also changed the graphic Card and added a hard-disk. I can accept the need to re-install my applications, but the process of this tool is the requirement of a new registration (sending a mail and waiting a day or two for a new license). Exporting the license to park it on another PC is supported, but has failed to me several times (and the manuals and helpfiles contradict eachother on these matters).

What I wanted to say is... why do we have to suffer all these problems when using our legally aquired software when it doesn't prevent the software to being copied around?
Why is it harder to use and install this legally aquired software then it is to run a cracked copy?
Is it worth it?
Can anyone share their opinion on this?

P.S. Let's not turn this thread into sharing links to illegal stuff, please.

Re: About piracy & stuff

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:43:54 GMT

stefan wrote:
What I wanted to say is... why do we have to suffer all these problems when using our legally aquired software when it doesn't prevent the software to being copied around?
Why is it harder to use and install this legally aquired software then it is to run a cracked copy?
Is it worth it?

A new version of ArchiCAD is available every 18 month (±). The patches do not require to reinstall ArchiCAD. Let's say you have to reinstall AC entirely every 9 month (for a complete upgrade, for exemple).

You then have to reboot your PC 2 times to get the job done. I don't think it's so hard to do...
but I do think :
1. the wibu driver should be better designed : USB can be plug and play : I have a wacom tablet that is installed directly without rebooting, same for my mouse, my MP3 player, my digital camera
2. Archicad install procedure should be better written : uninstall should ask to keep wibu driver or not and install procedure should ask to upgrade wibu driver or not

Re: About piracy & stuff

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:23:35 GMT

One thing is certainly unfair.
Why the price in Europe of all cad related software is about 2x the price in USA.

When i first bought Autocad the price was if i remember well about $1200 in usa (autocad 12) and in my country it was..(hold on) $3200.

If this isnt stealling then what is??
I was using as a student an illegal version of the software to learn it and bought it when ther was a "great offer" just when autocad was moving to next version. The offer was $1200!!!

The same holds for archicad. I bought it abought $3000
and that was half!!!! the price as an offer to new architects (under 3 years of work)
The nominal price is $6000
I am sure that this price is too high and leaves a great space for piracy.
How can i buy 3dstudio when it cost about $10000.
Its the same mistake that causes music piracy.
Greed. they sell cd's at $30! are they crazy?
I am a classical music fan. If you are too you should know a label Naxos. They sell at $6 with great recording and not multiple recording.
They are expanding at least for the last 10 years and they have no problem with piracy. Imagine why?

And one more thing about dongles.
I hate them
I have about 10 software witch use dongles.
In and out update restart....
The hell
And with old parallel ones problems with the printer.

I have to admit that with 2 of my programs all leagaly bought i use the "cracked versions" I cannt just have 10 parallel dongles stuck behind my pc. They cause problem...
(the funny thing is 3 of them are now useless because i have replaced them with archicad and the usb dongle)

And one more thing..
Please graphisoft realese these API's
Users can create miracles and most of them will be free.

Re: About piracy & stuff

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:44:54 GMT

software companys always say OUR PRODUCT IS SECURE!
no software is 100% secure, the day the software is released that same day comes the cracked released, if it was code by man...man can uncode..., and here is where crackers come, its like use...we love 3d, rendering, who can make the more realistic render, wei can make the most complex model....the same as crackers..who can crack FleXem,cdilla....is outstanding...and definitly has more skills, thats it...SKILLZ,...specially if he makes a 100%release, also in history many crackers has found many bugs not just on software security but bugs on the software code itself....well they are also using the saying test before u buy...u cant trust a soft demo..that only let u use the most used commands and features, u need to see how its going to work fully to be 100% sure of your invest...at least they say...

but definitly i agree to u, a cracked release is way more easy to setup,(normally becuase groups have their own installers...or they make easy to use) than a legal instalation......but all this secure hardware keys, is to AVOID them(the crackers)...but the only result is the crackers to get more skills....if u know what i mean...u cant stop a coder...lol..thats crazy...they know what is coming!

Re: About piracy & stuff

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:51:24 GMT

I'm in total accord with Stefan.
i have paid for the USE of software (author rights ) not for
an inutile object.
If i loose my dongle - i loose the right to use archicad.
If someone find the dongle he cant use the archicad legally
without a user contract signed by an archicad reseller
Yes inutile because archicad cracks fly over the net , so the hardware key is a too complicated way for a bad protection.
Why is the dongle superior to the user contract ?
The dongle cant make me NOT to use a cracked version or multiple installations
Only a Police or BSA control can find and punish me, but with dongle or not - the cracked version itself or multiple pc's installation are illegal facts compared to user license.
I have the feeling that i am restricted mentally to enjoy and
use this program even i buy the use right
In fact nobody buy archicad , all users buy a hardlok an expensive OBJECT who give the right to use the software (as the graphisoft mention)
Any graphisoft reseller on the net ON THE FIRST PAGE don't tell as THAT in the FIRST time we buy an object - the
mr. hardlook
They let us understand that wee buy the ARCHICAD USER RIGHTS by omitting this significant detail

- the rights are described in the contract not in the hardlok bits

Re: About piracy & stuff

Djordje — Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:59:56 GMT

archibaldo wrote:
AND MOST OF ALL :
*DELETED BY MODERATOR * ....hi ,hi, hoo

"Thanks" for the first real opportunity to exercise my moderator status ...

Please note that NOBODY on this list has the right to insult anybody else on personal, racial, national or whatever other basis.

Very heated discussion is going on in the Pub right now, and I feel you could contribute - this or that way - so please ...

Let's keep it professional!

Re: About piracy & stuff

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:13:22 GMT

I dont intended to insult nobody , and i make a JOKE about graphisoft PRICE POLICY .

All U.S. users escuse me !

.I make this joke because I cannot explain why in the european estern countries like Romania where an architect earn about 200 or 300 euro per month must pay for archicad more than an american architect.
Those are the reasons because the Archicad piracy rate in those countryes are about 95%.
Graphisoft must consider that .and to adapt their prices or the sales policy for all if they want to gain the war with the "black cad maket"
The 95 % cad piracy rate in estern europe show that i m right about graphisoft rigid marketing.
Is the topic . I just say mY opinion .

Re: About piracy & stuff

MarinRacic — Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:10:33 GMT

I agree completely! There's no way that the price can be equal to architects in different countries with different standards - if an architect in Central/East European country makes, let's say, 500 EUR per month, Graphisoft can't expect of him to go out and buy a legal version for 5000 EUR while his American colleague has to pay $1000 less and earns 10 times more?!
That's no way to exterminate piracy... 😞

BTW, what country has the cheapest ArchiCAD license? Maybe we could organize some kind of import-export business? 😉
(just kidding, of course)

Re: About piracy & stuff

Richard Morrison — Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:42:52 GMT

I'm just guessing at the reasons for the pricing policy, but I suspect that it could have something to do with the high costs of developing a localized version that has a relatively limited user base compared to English versions which can be sold (and therefore costs spread out) to far more users.

It would seem only fair, though, that you should be able to buy an English language version at the same price as everyone else.

Re: About piracy & stuff

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:38:28 GMT

Richard wrote:
I'm just guessing at the reasons for the pricing policy, but I suspect that it could have something to do with the high costs of developing a localized version that has a relatively limited user base compared to English versions which can be sold (and therefore costs spread out) to far more users.

It would seem only fair, though, that you should be able to buy an English language version at the same price as everyone else.

I think that this is not the reason.
If i wanted the English version instead of the Greek one, the price is the SAME for me.
Translation issues are minor.
It requires very little effort.

The most important reason is unfortunately a political one.
All software is sold at a lower price in US.

Does the famous banana war remind you of something??

Re: About piracy & stuff

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:53:52 GMT

What if I buy an ArchiCAD US licence on ebay ? Will it be possible to upgrade ?

Re: About piracy & stuff

stefan — Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:05:48 GMT

oreopoulos wrote:
Richard wrote:
I'm just guessing at the reasons for the pricing policy, but I suspect that it could have something to do with the high costs of developing a localized version that has a relatively limited user base compared to English versions which can be sold (and therefore costs spread out) to far more users.

It would seem only fair, though, that you should be able to buy an English language version at the same price as everyone else.
I think that this is not the reason.
If i wanted the English version instead of the Greek one, the price is the SAME for me.
Translation issues are minor.
It requires very little effort.

The most important reason is unfortunately a political one.
All software is sold at a lower price in US.

Does the famous banana war remind you of something??

The dutch translation is not made anymore, because of the high costs involved (think about: software, manuals, help-files and other documentation).

The German version is much more expensive then the English or French ones in Belgium. And the English version in Belgium is much more expensive then the American one.

--> I once heard someone talk about it and they explained that the market drives the price: they took a price that makes the product sellable. But I agree that the price should be conforming to the local income or... to allow anyone to buy it at the cheapest price that is legally available.

Remember though, that because of taxes even products with the same price can have a different total cost.

Re: About piracy & stuff

Anonymous — Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:05:16 GMT

Geoffroy wrote:
What if I buy an ArchiCAD US licence on ebay ? Will it be possible to upgrade ?

I researched this option once and it appears that technically 'all' you need is permission from GS. It also appears that in _practice_ this happens (although takes a little time).

Talk to your local reseller - who should be able to help you here. AFAIR the 'transfer' fee was something in the $475 range (??) ...

HTH - Stuart

Re: About piracy & stuff

Vitruvius — Thu, 12 Feb 2004 02:50:14 GMT

I empathize with those outside North America who are paying more for their AC licence (English or otherwise). I fully agree that if you're willing to purchase a US version it should be the same price anywhere in the world. Language localized versions may cost more but it shouldn't be that much of a premium.

However, GS has carved up the world into distributor regions and you are at the distributors mercy price-wise. Here in Hong Kong they want 60% more to sell me the US package.

Which, being a global citizen and entrepeneur I am unwilling to pay - so I just import it myself from the US. Perfectly legal and the price is right. Of course the local distributor won't provide support but personally I find forums such as this far more knowledgable.

Cheers, Cameron