topic Re: Pen Sets in Modeling

Pen Sets

Anonymous — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 17:38:26 GMT

Anyone know where to find the pen sets mentioned in the ArchiWiki.
http://www.archicadwiki.com/Pen%20Sets
Section IV mentions 11 pen sets as being available.

If these are standard in a previous version and not in 13, that's OK.
I have AC9,10,11,12,13. Just want to get some ideas from these pen tables.

Thanks,
Snap

Re: Pen Sets

Laszlo Nagy — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:16:49 GMT

If you do a New & Reset or start a new project based on the AC13 Template, they should be there.
Or go to the Attribute Manager and import them from the AC13 Template file.

Re: Pen Sets

Erich — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:49:20 GMT

Keep in mind that the article does not completely mesh with the US standards

The following article does not pertain to the US version, which also introduced a new pen table for Archicad 10. The US pen table is compatible with libraries from Archicad 9 and earlier. Accordingly, the US version of the "ArchiCAD library 10" uses pen defaults consistent with earlier versions and 3rd party libraries. (i.e. pen 91 is still white, door swings are still pen 6, etc.)

It would be nice if there could be a corresponding US version of the wiki article (as well as for any other localization that did not hold to the wiki standard).

Re: Pen Sets

Anonymous — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:30:51 GMT

Thanks, for some reason still not finding them. See attached.
On the left is what I get through attributes manager in 13.
On the right are the per sets described in the Wiki.
Snap

Re: Pen Sets

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 00:47:12 GMT

Yes, the default pen sets delivered with 13 (and 11 and 12) for US users are pretty pitiful. As far as I know, the deficiencies in the US default template and default attributes are due to Graphisoft US not wanting to spend funds to customize the US user experience. (When the economy was OK, that meant that consultants like me got hired by some firms to explain different methods of managing pen sets, etc. for a custom template for that firm.)

The available US pen sets do not do much of anything intelligent with regards to pen assignment, weight, etc in a way to generate different entity line 'pop' for different kinds of drawings.

I should note that many of us AC-nerds strongly advise keeping both pens 91 and 19 as white so that library parts from both the US library and international libraries will (sort of) work.

There was a loss in translation when AC 10 was introduced and the international library parts moved to use pen 19 as white. We US users pointed out that projects are often moved forward from one version to the next with library parts from the current, and previous libraries in use. Thus, if GS wanted pen 19 to be white, we needed pen 91 to remain white. The intent was that the US pen table would support both old and new parts, but GS misunderstood and kept the US parts using an older pen scheme and the INT (and other) parts using a different scheme. It is just one of many messes in the libraries. They also promised us a tool for AC 10 that would let us change default pen assignments en-mass for an entire library (via the XML library tool) - and that was never delivered.

Anyway...

Yeah, the wiki should get an article on the US pens...but I doubt that anyone understands any of those default US pen sets as, frankly, none really make sense for practice IMHO.

Do note that the US library uses pens 1-10 for specific functions - window/door frames, window glass, etc. So, altering them by color or weight will affect the default appearance of most library parts. So, in particular, don't use pen 1 as your 'black' or 'wall' pen ... because it is a default lib part pen as well.

For more years than I can remember, we have pressed Graphisoft to show pen weight in the tables in mm by default, explaining that even though we use Imperial for measurement, including points for fonts, that we do not use points to measure line width. That, along with all other pen related issues has remained on a back burner in a dark room somewhere in a basement in Budapest that somebody lost the key to. 😉

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Pen Sets

Anonymous — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:14:47 GMT

Thank you for the extensive reply, including the 19&91 pen explanation. I knew about the 91 pen, but this is the first I have heard about the 19 white pen.
Do you find much advantage to the "scale calibrated" international pens sets, ie for large site plans, etc?

I would appreciate it if one of the INT users would post a link to or excel table of a "detailing" pen set (*.aat). The Wiki calls this the "05 Detailing" pen set.
BTW, The Wiki is very helpful in explaining some of the "reserved" pens and why they are that way.
However, I suspect the Wiki is out of date because they only mention reserved Pens 1-7 instead of Pens 1-11 per your post.
Oddly, it also talks about pens 1-140 as being "in use" by Archicad and pens 141-256 for user functions.

My strategy for now will be to experiment with a new pen set created by just redefining the 1-11 pens. ...Hopefully...

Still learning,
Snap
PS For anyone following along, here's the link to that pen Wiki:
http://www.archicadwiki.com/Pen%20Sets

Re: Pen Sets

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:56:24 GMT

snapcrackle wrote:
Do you find much advantage to the "scale calibrated" international pens sets, ie for large site plans, etc?

Absolutely. I advocate different scale pen sets so that enlarged wall sections or details (or small key plans) will 'pop' the way you want them to. A pen that is wide enough to make a elements look decent at 1/4" scale will not look great at 3/4".

Glad the long post helped some ... hopefully one of us (n the US) will update the Wiki article... Sadly, I have to go skiing right now though. 😉

K

Re: Pen Sets

Anonymous — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 13:49:37 GMT

Can anyone attach or sent me the attribute file for the international penset? I would like to make a US/International hybrid penset. Thanks

Re: Pen Sets

Anonymous — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 15:14:53 GMT

Never seen this article before, so...
After reading the link to wiki posted by snapcrackle(thanks),
I tried to find equivalent in U.S. but doing a search in the wiki for: U.S. pen sets,(etc) I would get sent right back to INT pen sets.
Probably real obvious, but I'm not finding it.
Anyone know where's the equivalent US pen set logic wiki?
lec

Re: Pen Sets

Erich — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:51:33 GMT

AFAIK it does not exist.

Re: Pen Sets

Anonymous — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:16:58 GMT

Thanks Erich
Can it be assumed (I know scary word) that the basic INT concept is valid?
If so, what (if any,(sections) should be ignored due to the hazard-es perils of wasting my life away with trying to make sense of it?
I've only made two basic, completely new, pen sets for myself.
Yet, with the reliable logic of G.S.'s great infinite wisdom (or someone else's) regarding "master plan" for a highly productive pen set(s), I could see budgeting a fair amount of time for the long term gain. Just don't want to wade into a forewarned quagmire.
lec

Re: Pen Sets

Erich — Sat, 05 Jun 2010 16:40:06 GMT

Lec,

I doubt that I am the best person to answer your question. There are differences in what pens are used by the library parts (ie. pen 19 is white in the international library versus pen 91 in the US) However, I think other than that the general logic is similar. Perhaps someone who really knows can clarify the issue. Anyone up for writing a wiki article?

Re: Pen Sets

rob2218 — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 17:33:30 GMT

Wow...it's good to know at least I'm not the only user concerned with this whole "penset/plot thicknesses" issue.

I mean, this is not a difficult reguest here folks.....for Graphisoft to provide an "OUT-OF-THE-BOX" U.S. penset with their releases that works the way it should? that makes the right scale drawings of walls, doors and windows, etc....."pop" (as one user put it).

I mean, is this being unreasonable or what?

I just got chewed out in another thread by another user I posted about a penset when asked if a user could post their penset they have been using for AC14............