topic Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio in Modeling

GS clearly does not take the residential architect seriously

rm — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:13:43 GMT

This is going to be a RANT. So if you are a full time GS apologist, you might want to move on.

This week I upgraded one of my dongles to AC 12, only one! For the majority of my last 15 years of using AC, I have used it on upper bracket residential projects. During that time I have purchased numerous 3rd party libraries for windows, doors, and furniture....because the AC library has had the same pieces of _ _ _ _ for the last 2000 years!!!

This while applications for significantly less money, mostly on the PC side - darn-it, have had features like cabinets that heal themselves when arranged in the plan, windows that actually don't have trim problems and are based on real US manufacturers, doors that don't have trim problems and are based on real US manufacturers, furniture that doesn't look like a kid with a crayon drew them, extrusions, lathes, and sweeps that can be rotated and adjust in 3D, like Objective can do. Obviously the objects should be location friendly, I don't mean to suggest every country should adopt the US objects as standard.....OK, done being politically correct.

I have personally been told by the GS CEO when v9 was out, that by issuance of v11 there would be a "new" and well sorted out library that would be "thoroughly" tested. BS.....I have v12, and I found problems with the windows after working with them less than 5 minutes.....see the attached image, so you know I'm not blowing smoke.

What the heck does it take for GS to build a decent library? Let me tell you, I will have to go kicking and screaming to Revit, but if thats what it takes to access a decent library, I will consider it. Currently you can't access anything on the Google 3D warehouse directly into AC12, and there is NO indication from GS when we will see the plug-in again, if at all. And if your on the Mac side, forget it, you don't have a prayer as the plug-in only worked on the Windows side of AC.

Obviously, if I have stuck with this program since v4.1 I think it is reasonably good. What I find inexcusable is GS willingness to keep putting out lousy standard library sets. In the world of BIM and Photorealistic renderings, GS should be providing a solid realistic library set.....they are not even close!!!!!

I have forwarded the bug to GS through tech support. I am shocked I found the bugs with the windows in less than 5 minutes of using the AC12. God knows what I will find when I dig in further with the doors.

For what I just spent on an upgrade, I am absolutely torqued at how lacking this library still is. The truth is, even 3rd party libraries are very limited - they hardly exist. Clearly GS has not been successful in getting buy-in from US manufacturers to create libraries the way AutoDesk has with Revit. While there are some very generous users out there that give away some very good objects ( THANK YOU TO ALL OF YOU ) the majority of GDL objects available just are not realistic looking or don't stay current with AC.

I have suggested this before, and I will say it again. GS there are some really smart, good GDL gurus out there. Get off your wallet and hire these people to ONLY design objects or work with manufacturers of real Plumbing Fixtures, Light Fixtures, Doors, Windows, Furniture, etc....and pay them to test the objects thoroughly. I'm guessing a 1 million dollar investment in the libraries would yield something far superior to what you provide now....I guess 50 dollars might do that as well

.....hey Mr. Gallello - you getting any of this?

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:31:36 GMT

rm wrote:
I have forwarded the bug to GS through tech support. I am shocked I found the bugs with the windows in less than 5 minutes of using the AC12.

I reported the bug in your screenshot during beta or when 12 was released - a long time ago (relatively) anyway. It, and who knows how many other library bugs are logged in the 'system'.

A library patch / update is overdue for 12. There are too many things in the library that just do not work in 12 and make it impossible to get correct results.

Karl

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

jbArch — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 00:06:10 GMT

Try changing between reveal types (e.g. studwall or studwall w/siding) and you are in for some real fun... sit back and watch as your casings magically get reset, forcing you to re-enter all the casing sizes, sills, etc.

But hey Robert, at least GS gave us the ability to do cottage windows this time around, by adjusting the sash heights. That's a cool feature that's been missing for quite some time.

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

rm — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 02:20:21 GMT

Seriously,

Anyone who needs to use windows ( let see that should qualify a few architects and designers ) might want to consider voicing your concern to your reseller. I did not know Karl had already reported this very same issue to GS. I am not surprised as he is usually on top of these things. What is truly bothersome is that he reported this same issue during beta testing or shortly after 12 was released. GS apparently has chosen to ignore it or at least set it as a very low priority.

GS encourages all the resellers to push subscriptions - I know many of you have heard the sales pitch. MY OPINION... Accountability of GS to fix known bugs in the current version v_ _ seems to be non-existent, as many users will have already prepaid for the next version via their subscription. So why should GS be motivated to fix real problems in the current version?

Perhaps users should consider adopting a buy every other version strategy. Why, my 14 years of using AC shows me that GS seems to have a tendency of not fixing some ( not all ) serious issues until one or two releases after a bug has been reported. If a "buy every other version " approach was widely adopted by GS customers, would this buying strategy motivate GS to fix known bugs faster???

Since I do have to get work done, for now I'm going to be forced to down-grade to v11. At least I will be able put trim on my windows. Short of the Curtain Wall tool, I don't see any revolutionary difference between 11 and 12, though in fairness I have not worked in v12 very long......thats because I CAN'T, I need the doors and windows to work with trim.

Come on GS, how do you publish the object library with a straight face anymore?

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Karl Ottenstein — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 02:27:20 GMT

rm wrote:
Since I do have to get work done, for now I'm going to be forced to down-grade to v11. At least I will be able put trim on my windows. Short of the Curtain Wall tool, I don't see any revolutionary difference between 11 and 12, though in fairness I have not worked in v12 very long......thats because I CAN'T, I need the doors and windows to work with trim.

Come on GS, how do you publish the object library with a straight face anymore?

jbArch gave another example, and the forums have more reports of library issues in 12 (and in the 11 migration lib that is part of 12). I'm trying to find time to report even more window/door issues...

Robert - I would recommend that you stay with 12, but use the 11 library. You will not be able to use partial structure display (core only), but will still be able to use the other features of 12 such as multicore support, smart dimensioning, 3D document, etc. And...there are quite a few bug fixes in 12 beyond 11 (not surprisingly) - I have one colleague/client who has a file that crashes in 11, but works in 12...

Regards,
Karl

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

__archiben — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 02:52:49 GMT

rm wrote:
.....hey Mr. Gallello - you getting any of this?

... all the way to the bank mate, all the way to the bank.

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

schagemann — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:41:14 GMT

in the spirit of this thread another RANT WARNING

regarding the object library may i add to the above that the following was always beyond me...

1. how can graphisoft (anyone) rely on product manufacturers to generate objects in a proprietary language, when traditionally they even struggled to provide proper 2d cad drawings, let alone good 3d models (low polycount);

2. and even if someone commits to providing GDL objects now pretty much every year have to adjust their parts to work with the latest "new features"... unless you see this as a business model;

3. if for each yearly halfbacked new feature - which may have been a bug report a few year's ago - we are advised not to migrate and finish the project in the version it was started (which btw seems to be graphioft's official line) or have to go through the same painstaking process of limited functionality and bug reports, then there is a fundamental flaw in graphisoft's approach;

IMHO development is generally a good thing, but it needs to be substantial enough in order to be a) feasible and b) sustainable.

ds.

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Anonymous — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:23:08 GMT

The ArchiCAD library supported by neither GS nor manufacturers is precisely why ArchiCAD in the long run is a dead end street. If we represented a vital enough community manufacturers would be making it their business to provide the simple parameters it takes to make a parametric object a useful and accurate "commodity" I find much of the library to embarassing to show to clients. The unavailability of the google earth connector to 12 is a painful reminder of how poorly ArchiCAD is perceived in the world outside of our little community. End of rant

Cheers Cary
ArchiCAD 12 build 2285 usa full
windows XPsp3

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Rick Thompson — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:51:04 GMT

I have been using Smart Parts library for years, and only during one beta testing were there any problems, and those were fixed pretty quick by Neil, the developer. He has always been responsive during beta to make any changes. During AC12, there were no issues I ran across, and I didn't even look at AC's windows and doors then.. still haven't. (All I do is residential work). It might be worth while to consider simply not using GS's windows and doors at all. It seems that section of the library regularly has problems, and has taken years to get up to the level Smart Parts has been for a long time. It also simplifies library migration. I am still working with plns I started years ago that have migrated through many, many AC versions without any problems (well, window and door related).

My view is that GS has only minor interest in developing the library, so I have minimum expectations. They seem to put all the limited resources into splashing some new feature each release date (which I rarely need doing residential work), only to continue to bury many sorely needed fundamental fixes. If you want a rant (yours was milk toast ), lets talk about the calc function. How there's a piece of DOS like work.

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Anonymous — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:57:16 GMT

FWIW Al gore invented the internet and John McCain the blackberry

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Anonymous — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:32:59 GMT

Windows and doors are only a part of the library conditions - try using things like the straight ramp that does not allow for percentage coordination between the various sections - you cannot have one slope in the bottom transition and a different one at the top - and the changes do not allow for typical vertical curves at either point. Stairs are still too limited in their presentation and do not show the rails correctly on the plans yet - no joinery in landings etc.

Oh well, having b-----ed since 4.16 I too have started to become discouraged.

Lew Bishop
MBP 17 OS X latest AC 12 etc.

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

rm — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:35:04 GMT

Rick wrote:

My view is that GS has only minor interest in developing the library, so I have minimum expectations.

Rick,

I have seen your work, and it is very well done, design sensitivity and documentation. But with all do respect, by not holding GS feet to the fire and keep them accountable for the poor libraries they continue to publish, version after version, we will never get a good library from them or an increased third party library catalogue.

More than any other library part types, doors and windows are probably the most commonly used parts throughout any building design, be that residential or commercial. GS has just completely dropped the ball on this concept.

I have heard the promises from GS, resellers, and the like....."THIS version of AC is the MOST tested ever"...."we will NEVER put out another version like v_ _ again"!

When the long time users of this application start jumping to Revit, GS might want to take note.

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Rick Thompson — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:52:41 GMT

rm wrote:
But with all do respect, by not holding GS feet to the fire and keep them accountable for the poor libraries they continue to publish, version after version, we will never get a good library from them or an increased third party library catalogue.

I do agree that any and all feedback should be directed at GS. I guess I am a bit disillusioned after so many years of fussing about my pet issues and still no developmental energies focused there. (Calc functions mainly). So, I am glad when people express these issues. I am just a bit tired myself after so many years of being bummed with the "new features" that don't help my residential work, and unfortunately, I don't see my needs matching GS's marketing needs. I try to keep it in perspective that just 10 -15 years ago I was drawing everything by hand, and now I can accomplish a work flow I never dreamed of being able to do in the 90's. I guess at this time I am happy the glass is half full! But yes, I like seeing the expressed frustrations in a constructive manner, it never hurts, and can only help, and I will continue to fuss myself.

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Djordje — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:58:20 GMT

While your frustration is understood, you have to keep in mind that ArchiCAD is for all, not only US residential architects - whatever your dealer wants you to believe. It is hard to be all to all, as the old saying says. You can keep some people happy some of the time, not all of them all the time.

Your complaints might be best aimed at GSUS, as they know best what percentage of the licenses is serving the residential industry. Advanced users like Ransom Ratcliff - the first that springs to mind - did enourmous amounts of work in order to bring the libraries, pen sets, and other critical issues to the liking of the US users.

The road to perfection, if it exists at all, is in the interaction and the feedback, as well as the hard work put forward by yourselves too - like Rick did with his calculation templates, and others with theirs.

Be always aware that the makes of the software do NOT necessarily use it daily, and are definitely not in the throes of the architectural practice. Therefore, we must informatively say what we want, and document it. Don't assume that a programmer knows what a 2x4 is. He will presume it is eight.

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

rm — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:32:09 GMT

Djordje wrote:
While your frustration is understood, you have to keep in mind that ArchiCAD is for all, not only US residential architects - whatever your dealer wants you to believe.

Agreed, that IS why I wrote what I did when I started this post. However to be clear, my reseller has never tried to get me to believe AC was "only for US residential architects".

rm wrote:
Obviously the objects should be location friendly, I don't mean to suggest every country should adopt the US objects as standard.....

Djordje wrote:
Your complaints might be best aimed at GSUS, as they know best what percentage of the licenses is serving the residential industry. Advanced users like Ransom Ratcliff - the first that springs to mind - did enourmous amounts of work in order to bring the libraries, pen sets, and other critical issues to the liking of the US users.

Again, we agree, that is why I wrote this in my original post. I am not sure Djordje you are grasping my intent here. While some users may have contributed much to the development of the US library, that is not a reason or excuse for GS to publish a poorly implemented one. And lets be clear, while my discussion has focused on residential architecture, the AC 12 library has problems beyond doors or windows, and last time I checked there are doors and windows in commercial buildings as well

rm wrote:
I have personally been told by the GS CEO when v9 was out, that by issuance of v11 there would be a "new" and well sorted out library that would be "thoroughly" tested. BS.....I have v12, and I found problems with the windows after working with them less than 5 minutes.....see the attached image, so you know I'm not blowing smoke.

Djordje wrote:
The road to perfection, if it exists at all, is in the interaction and the feedback, as well as the hard work put forward by yourselves too - like Rick did with his calculation templates, and others with theirs.

Let me know when GS releases AC 13, maybe I should send my next check to the users who helped in development, instead of GS. Give me a break, no one is expecting perfection, the AC library is not even close to it. How many versions of the software will it take before GS puts out a solid, current with standards, extensive library?

Djordje wrote:
Be always aware that the makes of the software do NOT necessarily use it daily, and are definitely not in the throes of the architectural practice. Therefore, we must informatively say what we want, and document it. Don't assume that a programmer knows what a 2x4 is. He will presume it is eight.

Well, given the US is a MAJOR market for GS, and given there are Architects working as programers and the like at GS, they darn well better know what a 2x4 is. If they dont, I assure you the folks at AutoDesk can teach them.

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 00:51:08 GMT

Develop Stair tool that I drive not G.S.
(Especially REAL winder control).

Fully develop LightWorks capabilities.
(or at the very least give us real-time sliders).

DEVELOP US BASED LIBRARIES OR LOOSE us SOMEDAY!!!
Like top of the line modern U.S. Kit. stuff;

Although I do only mid size residential remodels/additions,
these are high end clients, (the only ones who have money right now).
I can't model top of the line kitchens for them with AC and that's sometimes embarrassing, at the very least.

U.S. based thresholds would be nice;

I feel I pay enough for AC already, don't want to get into the add-on treadmill.

Bier

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Anonymous — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 01:08:22 GMT

In Revit, if you had someone to show you how, you could pretty readily create whatever window you want.

How many people really know how to do this in Revit? Not many. And the documentation to show how this could be done is nowhere near complete in the help files. It's a major commitment to learn this.

So we've had Revit users make the same complaint, and move on to Chief Architect, which for a fraction of the price of Revit or ArchiCAD, does what residential builders generally want.

You pay a thousands of dollars for software that doesn't do what you want because it doesn't have the libraries you need. It's a problem all right...

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Anonymous — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:44:36 GMT

metanoia wrote:
In Revit, if you had someone to show you how, you could pretty readily create whatever window you want.

How many people really know how to do this in Revit? Not many. And the documentation to show how this could be done is nowhere near complete in the help files. It's a major commitment to learn this.

So we've had Revit users make the same complaint, and move on to Chief Architect, which for a fraction of the price of Revit or ArchiCAD, does what residential builders generally want.

You pay a thousands of dollars for software that doesn't do what you want because it doesn't have the libraries you need. It's a problem all right...

I know users Revit, which made allegations similar to yours. But in practice they are unable to make the window so the number of settings, as there is in ArchiCAD. Their objects have a very low level of parameterization and a small number of settings. This is tantamount, if a user ArchiCAD create your object without GDL-programming. To achieve a better result, the user Revit should spend very much time to establish their facilities. So many that it is possible to forget that you are an architect, not a creator of objects.

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

rm — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:52:09 GMT

Folks,

Can we keep this thread going with the original message / intent. That is the problems with the AC library, not Revit.

I'm sure there are plenty of Revit forums out there.

Thanks

Re: GS clearly does not take the residential architect serio

Anonymous — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 04:47:27 GMT

Sorry. I had to say: "metanoia, allow to users of ArchiCAD solve their problems without your subtle appeals to move to Revit!"