topic Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction in Modeling

Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Wed, 24 May 2023 18:00:27 GMT

Hi,

I'm creating a timber frame building, of which will have curtain wall. How can I do it so that when I create a window the columns that make the wall joists cut to the window as the window is complex ( in terms of shape ). I've tried the SEO but no matter how I set it up, the columns just don't cut.

Thank You

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:51:28 GMT

I think you need to provide pictures. Your description is difficult to understand.

It seems that you really need to study up on basic building methods and terminology. For example, walls don't have joists. There must be some books on framing methods at the university library, otherwise search online.

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:53:01 GMT

Ok, I'm sorry my terminology isn't that good... it's the first time I've looked at timber framing and I'm not sure on all the terminology.

Hopefully the image will explain what I mean. If not, let me know ! ( and the image is of a Elevation)

Thank you

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:20:18 GMT

Hi Nathan,

As an alternative to modelling the studs manually, there is an add-on that will do the wall framing/studwork automatically which is available from Cadimage - http://www.cadimagetools.com/tools.aspx?id=4

As you're a student it may be available for free.

There is also a basic wall framing wall accessory available from within ArchiCAD as standard, but it doesn't work very well for me. (Which is why it is still a unsupported 'goodie' rather than a proper add on!)

You can get it from the help menu in ArchiCAD. Look for the link to 'ArchiCAD 13 Downloads'. You will need to add the 'accessories library' separately after installation using the library manager. It will be found in the standard AC13 installation folder.

Both will analyse the geometry of any wall and automatically build all the studwork around any openings. They will also update if the wall is resized or openings moved, removed or added. Very clever stuff!

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:01:56 GMT

I'm still not sure why you are so worried about stud walls in a timber frame. Even in a stick framed building it is unusual to model the framing. Typically the walls are just modeled as simple geometry and the framing layout is done by the contractor according to standard methods.

The opening for the complex window you show would typically be framed as a simple rectangular opening with kingstuds and jackstuds on either side with continuous a header and sill across the entire width. The odd shape would then be filled in with short bits. In the US we have numerous references for standard framing methods. Architectural Graphic Standards is one of which probably all Architects have at least one edition. You must have something similar over there. A quick browse will give you a host of pertinent info.

BTW: Curtainwall refers to a fully glazed system with no wall framing. What you have shown is just a complex window.

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:12:28 GMT

Matthew wrote:
I'm still not sure why you are so worried about stud walls in a timber frame. Even in a stick framed building it is unusual to model the framing. Typically the walls are just modeled as simple geometry and the framing layout is done by the contractor according to standard methods.

The opening for the complex window you show would typically be framed as a simple rectangular opening with kingstuds and jackstuds on either side with continuous a header and sill across the entire width. The odd shape would then be filled in with short bits. In the US we have numerous references for standard framing methods. Architectural Graphic Standards is one of which probably all Architects have at least one edition. You must have something similar over there. A quick browse will give you a host of pertinent info.

BTW: Curtainwall refers to a fully glazed system with no wall framing. What you have shown is just a complex window.

I see. So when I place the complex wall, should I ' cut' the studs manually or will SEO do this? Then after the window is in place and the studs have been cut to create a clear opening, I then just place jackstuds ( we call them noggins ) around the window for extra support, like you said ( I can picture this in my head now )

I apologise if I'm making this more complicated than it should be ( I tend to do that ), but I just wanted to know if there was any other way to go about it as I assumed the above way was it.

Thank you very much, the University doesn't teach you how to build a building, they just give you a brief but I do research my project and develop thems ( I've been told a lot more than other students )

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:22:59 GMT

(I've posted this previously so sorry for the cut and paste)

The best resource at Uni I found for general constructional details was the Mitchells Building series of books. They are bound to keep the full range in your local library if you haven't discovered them yet.

The 'Structure and Fabric' range would be a good place to start, but they are all interesting reads if you have the time and inclination.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Structure-Fabric-Pt-Mitchells-Building/dp/0131970941/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1

They should have various typical details for UK spec timber framed buildings.

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:29:33 GMT

Peter wrote:
Hi Nathan,

As an alternative to modelling the studs manually, there is an add-on that will do the wall framing/studwork automatically which is available from Cadimage - http://www.cadimagetools.com/tools.aspx?id=4

As you're a student it may be available for free.

There is also a basic wall framing wall accessory available from within ArchiCAD as standard, but it doesn't work very well for me. (Which is why it is still a unsupported 'goodie' rather than a proper add on!)

You can get it from the help menu in ArchiCAD. Look for the link to 'ArchiCAD 13 Downloads'. You will need to add the 'accessories library' separately after installation using the library manager. It will be found in the standard AC13 installation folder.

Both will analyse the geometry of any wall and automatically build all the studwork around any openings. They will also update if the wall is resized or openings moved, removed or added. Very clever stuff!

Cadimage Wall Framing looks like a brilliant tool. I've checked and I can't get that particular tool for free, I do however get a few Cadimage tools... Kind of a shame, though I did just spend 3 hours making it manually !

I'm trying to edit the scheme of the wall in 3D, but when I delete unwanted parts, they just re appear. Also, How do I actually change the thickness of the frame, I've checked the manual and I read about nominal thickness and custom thickness, but it won't change .

Thank You

Thank You

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:53:21 GMT

Request to the moderators,

There are two threads initiated by the same user on essentially the same subject. Can these be joined? The duplicate thread is "New/Custom composite walls ?"

Thanks,
Snap

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Erika Epstein — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 02:35:43 GMT

NStocks wrote:
... Kind of a shame, though I did just spend 3 hours making it manually !

The exercise of doing it framing member by framing member is good for you. You learned a lot about how buildings are built

Cadimage and ,framewright both free for you as a student will now automate the procedure.

Now you can try both and report back to us the pros and cons of each of the 3 framing systems.

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Laszlo Nagy — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:57:02 GMT

snapcrackle wrote:
Request to the moderators,

There are two threads initiated by the same user on essentially the same subject. Can these be joined? The duplicate thread is "New/Custom composite walls ?"

Thanks,
Snap

I checked this and I would not want to merge them as they have now gone into different directions. It would be confusing.

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:02:35 GMT

Erika wrote:
NStocks wrote:
... Kind of a shame, though I did just spend 3 hours making it manually !

The exercise of doing it framing member by framing member is good for you. You learned a lot about how buildings are built

Cadimage and ,framewright both free for you as a student will now automate the procedure.

Now you can try both and report back to us the pros and cons of each of the 3 framing systems.

I received feedback today, mainly about the internal layout of my building. My tutor was impressed ( slightly) of the 3D drawing I made, but now all the sections are ' messy ' ( attached, and also a 3D cutaway, excuse the colours !) ) I'm thinking of using cadimage Wall framing and for the floors just use a solid slab to represent the floor thickness. Then, in section I will draw details like the Insulation, Timber joists, membrane etc. as this will be more accurate, take less time and look better.

I think my workflow needs adjusting, I'm determined to get everything done in 3D, but in reality you don't show how floors are made in 3D, hence why sections are so important. For clarification, do Architects manually draw most details and just model the floor as a solid slab ( I know how vague this sounds ! )

I would really like to show the structure ( timber construction ), however in 3D with the windows only, so this is why I will carry on using the column tool.

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Erika Epstein — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:33:17 GMT

The floor should be a composite. If you are going to show the framing joists, then the slab composite would be just the sub-floor and finish materials. Or, finish materials can be their own slab to allow you to vary the finish material so the floor slab is just the continuous sub-flooring. This approach also lets you show MEP without having to SEO them from a floor slab, as shown in your screen shot.
The ceiling below can then be separate, allowing for different ceiling heights and you can optionally include in the ceiling the insulation.
I am enjoying seeing your progress
Tell your Tutor we are impressed.

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:09:42 GMT

Erika wrote:
The floor should be a composite. If you are going to show the framing joists, then the slab composite would be just the sub-floor and finish materials. Or, finish materials can be their own slab to allow you to vary the finish material so the floor slab is just the continuous sub-flooring. This approach also lets you show MEP without having to SEO them from a floor slab, as shown in your screen shot.
The ceiling below can then be separate, allowing for different ceiling heights and you can optionally include in the ceiling the insulation.
I am enjoying seeing your progress
Tell your Tutor we are impressed.

Thank you Erika !

Well in the section image in the previous post, you can see that all the joists and slabsand insulation are overlaid onto each other, and I feel that the whole section looks messy. My plans are also hard to read as they are overlaid with joists, which my tutor said you don't need to see. She can be quite confusing at times, one day she will just ask for outlines of the building, the next she wants details. I know that in the elevations I will show the cladding and windows, nothing else, then I will create sections that will show the construction method and this is where you will see lots of details. Now regarding the 3D view, I want to show something similar to the image previously posted, but that has generated a ' messy' section, so should I have the 3D model on a separate file ?

Sorry if it's confusing, but I'm told different things everyday, and reading ' DETAIL" magazine is helping me a bit too, maybe I should post a image of what I want to achieve ?

At the end of the day I want to produce work like you would normally as a Architect.

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Erika Epstein — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:33:21 GMT

Nathan,
Layer Combinations are crucial to producing a good set of drawings. It Still strikes me as incongruous that for all the 3D modeling and BIM we do, are end product remains 2D drawings as it has for centuries. But I digress.

Most of us have modeling layer combinations and printing layer combinations.

The latter only have the layers we want to see printed for a particular drawing. For example your joists could be on a framing layer that would be turned off for floor plans and reflected ceiling plans. Similarly they might turned on for construction document building sections but off for preliminary design building sections. On again for framing drawings.
HTH

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:15:48 GMT

I've attached a scanned image of the type of documentation I wish to create. There are 2 types of section shown, an outline section and a detailed section. If I created the 3D model using no fills, I could then have sections with no fills, thus creating a outline section. I could then ' zoom' in on parts of the sections to show construction details at a larger scale obviously. Should I create the construction details i.e a larger scale section by manually adding fills ?

I'm not sure if it's easy to tell, but how could have the below images have been created, by the most simplest way !

Again, I apologise if I'm just re-typing what you say but I want to get it right from a professional point of view, not just looking at documents found in a magazine.

Thank You very much for your help.

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:16:18 GMT

Plans and section

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Erika Epstein — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:45:53 GMT

Nathan,
You chould create a view for each drawing you will be creating. With each view is saved the scale, layer combination, model view option, zoom, etc.

In your examples your building sections will most likely be at the same scale as your floor plan. You may have a wall sections that are saved at 2-3 times larger. These, like details, you will add in the 2D (annotation) information. Annotation includes fills, library part symbols, text, dimensions etc.

Notes and symbols legends e.g. lighting legend can be in your template on independent worksheets.
Details can be started right off the model (how you place your detail marker) and saved at whichever scale and other view setting options will be appropriate for that drawings.

These various drawings, the building section, wall section, detail, sheet notes, legends etc are all arranged on the layout sheet.
HTH

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:48:56 GMT

I see, so when I create the 3D model, should I set up as many fills/composites as I can or should I have them all empty and add any fills I want using the fill tool in layout?

Re: Curtain Wall and Timber Frame construction

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:42:44 GMT

NStocks wrote:
I see, so when I create the 3D model, should I set up as many fills/composites as I can or should I have them all empty and add any fills I want using the fill tool in layout?

The easiest way to start is to keep the fills to a minimum and fill in the details in the enlarged drawings. As you get to know the program you may want to enable more automated drafting from the model, but some inherent limitations to this have kept many advanced users from this approach.