topic Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy in Documentation

Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Achille Pavlidis — Fri, 26 May 2023 00:27:44 GMT

When creating a new Issue, no matter what value I choose as the Issue ID, this is never reflected in Revision ID, but instead the default 01 value is assigned.

I then have to manually change the the Revision ID manually for each and every single Layout, one-by-one!

Could this be fixed please?

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Laszlo Nagy — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 16:54:12 GMT

I think you should check the Override Revision Id of all included Layouts checkbox in that Dialog:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRdBb4Z5Or4

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Achille Pavlidis — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 10:49:50 GMT

Thanks for the reply Laslo.

This solves the problem for the First Issue, and for the first issue only, and potentially could cause confusion. Why the Layout gets revision 01? I have given the Issue ID as 0. I shouldn't be checking that option.

I want the layout to have their revision ID to reflect the changes made on them, and not the issue they are on. So for the next issues I have to have the "Override revision ID" unchecked. Otherwise, a Layout that gets amended for the first time on the 2nd Issue will have revision 2 instead of 1, jumping from revision 0 to 2.

This works fine with the "Override revision ID" unchecked when creating new Issues. The ID's get correctly increased to 1, 2 etc.
But if I create a new Layout then it gets included in the new Issue with revision 01. Why? Somewhere the revision ID overrides the Issue ID set by the user. I think this should be fixed

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Laszlo Nagy — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 12:11:12 GMT

Achille,

Could you please give me a step-by-step process for getting this issue.
To tell you the truth, I couldn't follow you, so I am not sure what first issue means for you because in this screenshot Issue 1 has the number "0", and Issue 2 has the number "1".

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Achille Pavlidis — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 13:53:12 GMT

OK,

So here is the problem: Let's say I start with my first issue, which I want it named something other than the default value AC has chosen, lets say its 001, or 1, or -in my case- 0.
Since the Revision ID of the Layout is automatically given from the Issue ID, I shouldn't be choosing the "Override Revision Id" option. I'm not overriding anything. I want the Revision ID to match the Issue ID, that I have given. So what's there to override? Apparently for some reason there is a default Revision ID value (01) that doesn't get updated with the Issue ID value.
Also, if I add a new layout in a subsequent issue, It should be numbered with the first Issue ID, and not with the arbitrary value 01. If I select the "Override Revision Id" option in this case, I will have the revision ID's messed up.

Also another problem: What happens with older files, that have layouts with various revisions, and are migrated to AC18?
How can I work with the new revisioning system? I cannot have layouts in back issues, because the date is automatically assigned, and I have issues at past dates.
What happens with those?

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Laszlo Nagy — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 15:20:58 GMT

Achille wrote:
Since the Revision ID of the Layout is automatically given from the Issue ID, I shouldn't be choosing the "Override Revision Id" option. I'm not overriding anything. I want the Revision ID to match the Issue ID, that I have given. So what's there to override? Apparently for some reason there is a default Revision ID value (01) that doesn't get updated with the Issue ID value.

The Revision ID and the Issue ID are two different things. The Revision ID of a Layout is not automatically given from the Issue ID.
Try this: with a file that has no Issues yet, create a new Issue, set "0" for its ID, and leave the "Override Revision ID of all included Layouts" checkbox unchecked. You will see that the Issue ID will be "0" and the Revision ID of all Layouts will be "01".

By default ArchiCAD includes all Layouts in the first Issue - that is how the program works - since one usually issues a full set a drawings in the Construction Documentation phase, and these will later have revisions as construction progresses and changes arise.

So the Revision ID will be the same as the Issue ID only when you check that "Override Revision ID of all included Layouts" checkbox. Having said that, one can see that Revision IDs are normally the same as Issue IDs, especially if we leave all IDs to default and all Layouts are always included in all Issues. Then one can really get the impression that Revision ID always comes fromthe Issue ID, even when that "Override Revision ID of all included Layouts" checkbox is not checked.
I think this can be confusing because by default both the numbering of Issues and the numbering of Revisions starts at "01" so for the First Issue, if you accept the default settings offered by ArchiCAD, the Issue ID and all Revision IDs will be "01", which can make one think that the Revision ID is coming from the Issue ID. But these are different things.
As there will be many Issues and not all Layouts are included in all Issues, that is when you really start seeing that Revision ID an Issue ID is not the same and that Revision ID is Layout-specific.

In the following image you can see how the Revision IDs of various Layout will become different:
Issue 01: all Layouts were included (I set the Revision ID for all Layouts to "0" manually here)
Issue 02: Only 3 Floor Plan Layouts were included, their Revision IDs became "1".
Issue 03: 2 Floor Plan Layouts and 4 Elevation Layouts were included. As you can see here, the Revision ID of the 2 included Floor Plan Layouts is now "2", while the Revision ID of the Elevation Layouts is only "1" as they were not part of Issue 02. So Revision ID is Layout-specific and is increased only when a Layout containing a Change is included in the given Issue.

Lastly, I also tried that "01" thing you mentioned for newly created Layouts. After closing Issue 03, I created a new Layout and then created Issue 04. When a new Issue is created, all Layouts that were non-existent at the close of the previous Issue will be automatically added to it. So this Layout is added to this Issue, but its ID is "01", and not "0" or "1" so it does not follow the formatting we have with the other Layouts. This might be a bug so I will forward this to Graphisoft. Also, I could not find a place where I could determine the default formatting for Revision IDs. They are always "01". I cannot set it to "001" or "1" or other formatting, or at least I couldn't find the place where I could.

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Achille Pavlidis — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 08:52:37 GMT

laszlonagy wrote:
Lastly, I also tried that "01" thing you mentioned for newly created Layouts. After closing Issue 03, I created a new Layout and then created Issue 04. When a new Issue is created, all Layouts that were non-existent at the close of the previous Issue will be automatically added to it. So this Layout is added to this Issue, but its ID is "01", and not "0" or "1" so it does not follow the formatting we have with the other Layouts. This might be a bug so I will forward this to Graphisoft. Also, I could not find a place where I could determine the default formatting for Revision IDs. They are always "01". I cannot set it to "001" or "1" or other formatting, or at least I couldn't find the place where I could.

This is exactly the point I'm raising. I think that during the development of AC 18, the Issue ID and Revision ID where identical, and I'm saying this because in the documentation manual we can see that in the issue window the IssueID/RevID is listed as the same thing

At some point this must have changed, but there hasn't been an option to allow for the custom numbering of Rev ID's, so they keep the default numbering with no option to change them.

If you are raising this to GS, could you also ask what should we do when a project that already has various revised layouts gets migrated to AC18?

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Laszlo Nagy — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 11:21:19 GMT

I will forward this Revision ID-ing issue to GS.

I have also checked the HelpCenter but I don't find any information about how to handle Revisions in migrated projects. I guess that is because revision as such did not exist in previous versions.

So what I would probably do is I would probably recreate those Revisions in AC18 that are already documented in the migrated project. For each Issue, I would recreate the Changes, assign them to the proper Revisions for all Layouts, and just before closing a given Issue, I would change my system clock to reflect the exact date I want to appear in that Issue. I would do this for each Issue and then finally I would recreate all revisions so far and arrive to the current state of the Project, then continue from there.

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Achille Pavlidis — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 11:31:01 GMT

Well this might work as a workaround, but still, I think GS should provide a way to create back issues with custom dates when migrating a project to AC 18

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Laszlo Nagy — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 11:36:12 GMT

OK, I will forward that wish to them as well.

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

__archiben — Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:32:36 GMT

laszlonagy wrote:
Also, I could not find a place where I could determine the default formatting for Revision IDs. They are always "01". I cannot set it to "001" or "1" or other formatting, or at least I couldn't find the place where I could.

This is a major issue I am having at the moment Laszlo: I need to be able to format the 'Revision ID': I can see how to over-ride/format the 'Change Numbering ID' and the 'Issue ID' seems to be automatically recognised based on the last Issue ID you typed in to the "ID" field (i.e. you can start with an issue "01" and the next one will be "02", but if in the next you over-write the "03" with an "A" the subsequent revision again will automatically be "B"....

Is it even possible? Massive oversight if not....

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Laszlo Nagy — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:11:20 GMT

I don't think there is an option to define this to be assigned automatically, it can only be done manually.
Maybe it is time for you guys to create a few Revision Management-related Wishes.

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

__archiben — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 21:28:46 GMT

laszlonagy wrote:
Maybe it is time for you guys to create a few Revision Management-related Wishes.

Seriously? Something so basic makes the wishlist and the feature has only just been released....?!

I just googled architectural document revision examples and there is a fair mix of numbers and letters as standard conventions, (a couple of combinations too) and that was with 30 seconds of research. It's just so disappointing that we can't recreate what is a long-established standard here because something that basic and easily resolved (most other archicad features making use of a alpha-numeric systems can be customised!) has been missed . . .

for what it's worth, we start with no revisions (a dash "-" for example), because nothing has been revised before moving on to A, B, C on a by-layout basis as revisions occur throughout the Sketch Design, Design Development and Construction Documentation phases. At the point the drawings are release for tender the entire set becomes revision "0". All going well, Construction Issue should be revision "1" and they clock up 2, 3, etc... from there. Too difficult? I'd happily miss the dash at the beginning if that proved too hard, but surely the rest is basic enough?

B

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Gergely Hari — Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:39:06 GMT

To clear things up a little ID-wise:

Revision ID always gets assigned based on the previous Revision ID, on a Layout-by-Layout basis.
So if one Layout's latest was 03, the next will be 04, while the other Layout, which is at Revision C, will continue with D.
So you only have to modify them manually when there's a change in the numbering logic, otherwise it will progress based on the previous ID.

Issue ID follows the same principle, the new Issue ID is generated based on the previous one. Issue ID is a completely separate identifier, which - as the name suggests - only identifies the Issue itself. For certain cases, where the entire documentation restarts its Revision numbering (ie. D&D -> CD transition, where lettering switches to numbering or vice versa), it can be used to override all the Revision IDs in it - after that, RevIDs will follow from that ID - same as if you manually modified the RevIDs of those Layouts.
But essentially, they are separate from RevIDs, and you should only use / display RevIDs on the Layouts, because that's what progresses on a by-Layout basis.

So Ben in your example, you only have to manually set the A revision, after that the IDs progress alphabetically, and with the first CD Issue, you should override all with 01, after that they'll progress numerically.

The problem with the "dash, A, B, C" numbering logic is known. As far as Layout revisioning goes, there are different numberings around the world, starting from one (version-numbering) like 1,2,3,...; A,B,C,...; or starting from zero (revision-numbering), 0,1,2,3...; nothing,1,2,3,...; and your case, nothing,A,B,C,... All the others are pretty straightforward, but since there are two schemes that start with nothing, and follow with different values, you'll always have to determine which one you want with the SECOND version (first Revision) of the Layout. (technically it would be possible to use special characters instead of the dash, that determine whether to follow up with numbers / letters, but that's overcomplicating things compared to manually setting A when it is necessary). Not straightforward to solve without screwing up the numbering system for others using different methods, still we're investigating.

And since there could be different Layouts in different phases (with different numbering), this cannot be a project level setting either, you'll have to do this on a Layout-basis.

Your workflow should go like this:
1) Create First Issue, Issue ID: "-" (dash), check the "override Revision ID", close First Issue (All Layouts start with dash)
2) with every consecutive Issue, you'll have to check for RevIDs that are "-1", and replace them with "A", all the others will advance automatically. The best place to do this is the Sheet Index, where you can see and edit the current Revision ID of all Layouts - if you include the appropriate field. Practically, you only have to modify those Layouts, which are at their second version / first Revision.
(After the first regular update, you'll be able to set Revision IDs for multiple selected Layouts in the Navigator / Layout Settings as well, but still, the Sheet Index should be the most convenient place to do this.)

best regards,
Greg

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Laszlo Nagy — Mon, 25 Aug 2014 12:15:59 GMT

Thanks Greg for this info. Honestly, I did not know about this feature that you can rename a Revision ID of a Layout, for example, from "02" to "A" and then the next Revisions will automatically become "B", "C" etc.
So the reason there is no separate place or Dialog for defining the automatic formatting of Revision IDs on Layouts is because whenever you change the format of a Revision ID to your liking, ArchiCAD will just follow that from there on. And that format can vary from Layout to Layout.

By the way, just so you guys know, Greg is the Product Designer at Graphisoft HQ who has been working on the Revision Management feature, so this info is "straight from the horse's mouth".

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

__archiben — Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:39:34 GMT

Gergely wrote:
So Ben in your example, you only have to manually set the A revision, after that the IDs progress alphabetically, and with the first CD Issue, you should override all with 01, after that they'll progress numerically.

thanks greg - that is well worth knowing. the confusion lies with understanding that the issue ID and the revision ID are two separate things but that to change the revision ID manually we have to use the issue ID...

when i approach new features i am always thinking, 'what is the least complicated workflow that will achieve my goal' because that's what most users need in order to adopt and embrace something. whilst this is plainly obvious now that you've explained it it's not suggested by the interface when you create that first issue. it even caught laci out by the looks of it! something to work on..?

and finally a question to screw things up further:

issues are releases of information. there is the first issue all the way through to the last issue. being the first issue it's generally called '1' (or '01'): i.e. it's a numercial thing. revisions can be alphabetical or numeric (in our case we're alphabetical up to the end of construction documentation and than numerical with the first tender/construction issue).

so: the first issue from my project is "01" and this issue is most likely to contain a series of documents at revision "A" (i'll let go of the "-" revision to make things easier). how do i achieve that? and more importantly, how do i modify our template file to make that outcome idiot-proof for the rest of the people in the office who want to be architects not archicadicts?

i'm sure this is not an uncommon occurrence - 4 of the last 6 companies i've worked for in UK (1) and NZ (3) worked like this, (the others didn't have any kind of system in place anyway!).

~/b

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

__archiben — Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:32:32 GMT

~/archiben wrote:
so: the first issue from my project is "01" and this issue is most likely to contain a series of documents at revision "A" (i'll let go of the "-" revision to make things easier). how do i achieve that? and more importantly, how do i modify our template file to make that outcome idiot-proof for the rest of the people in the office who want to be architects not archicadicts?

so i managed to achieve the result i needed using the sheet index to manually play around with the #RevID: not pretty, not intuitive and whether i'll remember it the next time is to be determined....

- start with issue 01 and ensure that the issueID is set to not overwrite the revisionID
- change all (default value) "01" revisions to "A" in the Sheet Index
- issue #1: if the sheet index is filtered in such a way that it doesn't show all layouts in the current issue you may miss some;
- issue #2: if new layouts are created subsequently they still become "01" and have to be chased down and changed...

none of which helps with helps with my second question: how to make it idiot proof. surely just creating a place where we the user can set a default value would be more appropriate? there is already a dialogue where this would be right at home already: "ID of Items in this Book/Subset/Layout" in any one of the Book/Subset/Layout Settings would be the place to find it....

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

DGSketcher — Tue, 26 Aug 2014 09:21:00 GMT

Gergely wrote:
Your workflow should go like this:
1) Create First Issue, Issue ID: "-" (dash), check the "override Revision ID", close First Issue (All Layouts start with dash)
2) with every consecutive Issue, you'll have to check for RevIDs that are "-1", and replace them with "A", all the others will advance automatically. The best place to do this is the Sheet Index, where you can see and edit the current Revision ID of all Layouts - if you include the appropriate field. Practically, you only have to modify those Layouts, which are at their second version / first Revision.

Having got my head around the way the AC18 revision system works it looks like another big step forward for Archicad.

By way of feedback the above workflow aligns with my local standards but it does feel awkward as there appears to be a need for constantly checking the revision numbers of new layouts and second issues with changes. I have no problem with the issue numbering but the revision ID needs to be more reliable and automated. I have never seen a drawing issued with a revision ID associated with no changes; it makes more sense to me that the layout revision counter only starts when a change is noted within the layout.

Clearly the system needs to work globally but it would be a lot more user friendly if the Revision Manager allowed for pre-setting the projects revision style e.g. alpha or numeric together with an option to include or ignore the revision counter with the first issue.

I have spotted that the GDL revision object allows for hiding the first entry but as was pointed out previously there is that awkward transposition from the first issue to second revised issue marked as "A" where the process is frustrated.

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Anonymous — Tue, 04 Dec 2018 13:08:00 GMT

Has anyone knows if this issue has been solved for Archicad 21 , seems still in the same situation than 2014.

Re: Issue ID/Revision ID discrepancy

Laszlo Nagy — Fri, 07 Dec 2018 10:40:51 GMT

I am not aware of any new developments since the original introduction of Revision Management features in ARCHICAD 18.