topic Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings in Documentation

Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Anonymous — Tue, 16 May 2023 22:56:57 GMT

Something that has frustrated me for a very long time when working in ArchiCad is the amount of clean up required when converting a 3D model to 2D elevations and sections. I have tried numerous ways to reduce this problem. My primary method now is to drag a copy of the lines and fills generated from the model up a given distance (i.e. 100') and then changing the layers of these lines and fills to layers that relate to my 2D elevations/ sections and that can relate to line colors so that when I need to share the drawings with someone using AutoCAd it is easier. The biggest problem with the cleanup is redundant lines on top of each other that have come from composite walls, slabs, roofs etc. I spend a lot of time deleting many of these lines in order to easily work with the 2D drawing. Is there some better way to eliminate all lines that occur on top of each other so that only one line exists. Maybe the solution is out there and I do not know about it, if not I think it is a very important problem that needs a solution.
David Rulon

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:48:50 GMT

Possible workaround that I use with SketchUp and might work with AC though I have not tried.
->Publish the elev-sect as a pdf or EPS
->open in illustrator
->saveas as DWG
->import to AC and rescale if necessary

All extra lines should be gone. It is also possible that it works with pmk's substituting PM for Illustrator.

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

TomWaltz — Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:57:38 GMT

jdrulon wrote:
Something that has frustrated me for a very long time when working in ArchiCad is the amount of clean up required when converting a 3D model to 2D elevations and sections.

Then don't. Believe it or not, it is perfectly possible to create elevations and sections without unlinking them or converting them to "drawing" mode.

It requires a little more discipline when building your model (pens, snaps, materials, etc) and you do have to darken a few things (usually polylines around the outline of the building), but gets around a lot of 2D/conversion headaches, and actually allows you to make changes while working in elevation view.

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Djordje — Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:23:19 GMT

jdrulon wrote:
Something that has frustrated me for a very long time when working in ArchiCad is the amount of clean up required when converting a 3D model to 2D elevations and sections.

Only if you are not careful when doing the model. Take care of dimensions and snaps, assign materials properly, and do NOT think about the submission DRAWINGS before you have the BUILDING.

When the building is properly built, the drawings are a breeze.

Think of it as being on site - if you start properly, it might take a day/week or two before progress is visible to the nervous owner. After that, it is plain sailing. BUT, if you rush it out at the outset, so that the progress is visible, you will face many a snag afterwards, and therefore lose more time.

Reconsider your way of doing things; going to the dentist also hurts for a short time, but that perpetual nagging pain is gone.

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Anonymous — Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:22:45 GMT

Thank you for your advice. Unfortunately the type of work we do requires very precise and detailed 2D drawings on which we work a long time. I have spent an enormous amount of time on the model getting it very precise but there are many things that cannot be done in the 3D model. The parametric library parts are great but limited to what they are programmed to allow you to modify. For instance I have created all of my own casework with drawers etc in order to be able to control all of the dimensions. Another example is that casement windows do not allow you to have different top and bottom sash dimensions. The list goes on. In the end takes too long or is impossible to draw everthing in 3D. This is the reason for my request to have some way to eliminate all of the redundant lines that are generated from the model. Maybe an add on program could do this.
David Rulon

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Anonymous — Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:11:43 GMT

Check for duplicates tool in add ons...

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Anonymous — Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:59:46 GMT

I cannot find "duplicates tool" in Add Ons. Does it have another name? Cannot I download it from somewhere? Thanks for your help.

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Anonymous — Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:37:26 GMT

I found it in the "Goodies" folder. That is terrific. I cannot believe I have suffered for so long without asking the question. Thank you very much.

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Anonymous — Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:24:07 GMT

Youre welcome .
Wow! This is the first time I could actually help someone, Im usually the one that needs help. I must be progressing...

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Oct 2005 01:27:30 GMT

I would like to say this tool is the magic bullet but unfortunately it gets some of the lines but not nearly all of them. It seems that the lines have to be exactly over each other with the same length. It seems that many lines that come from composite walls, slabs and roofs create redundant lines and a lot of these are not removed by this Add-On. In any case thank you for your help, at least it removes a number of lines and I guess other 3d duplications in the plan window.
David

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Richard Morrison — Wed, 26 Oct 2005 02:32:32 GMT

David,

I wonder if you weren't entirely understanding what Tom was saying. I don't think he was suggesting that you model everything. I think he was just saying you could leave a simpler model (without unlinking) and add all your 2D detail on top of that, in the section window. This way you get your detail, but leave the model "live" so changes show up easily and don't have redundant linework.

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:28:01 GMT

You are probably right. I tried an approach that I may not try again in which my client, who is tech saavy, rented a pay per use key of ArchiCAd and has been looking at the 3D model throughout the design process. He knows how to use the camera tool and I set up some layer combinations just for him. He goes in and looks around the house inside and out. It forced me to take things way beyond what one would normally do in 3D but I think it is an interesting concept. I know that one can produce QuickTime VR movies etc and still images but this does allow the client the freedom to look anywhere which hopefully minimizes the "Oh I didn't know it was going to look like that" moments. It would be great if Graphisoft could provide a version of the program that allows clients to look at, possibly mark-up and print any 3D, Elevation/ Section or Plan view from a version similar to the demo version.

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

TomWaltz — Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:11:55 GMT

Richard wrote:
David,

I wonder if you weren't entirely understanding what Tom was saying. I don't think he was suggesting that you model everything. I think he was just saying you could leave a simpler model (without unlinking) and add all your 2D detail on top of that, in the section window. This way you get your detail, but leave the model "live" so changes show up easily and don't have redundant linework.

Exactly. Some people are not comfortable modeling as much, or do a type of work not conducive to modeling, and model more in "outline" form. You still get a lot of the benefits of modeling without as many graphic and learning curve issues.

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:52:33 GMT

When you do as you are suggesting do you try to use any of the information from the model as is or do you trace over everything and put these 2D lines on separate layers that can be locked or turned off? Trying to get the walls, slab and roofs to clean up properly in the 3D mode is difficult and time consuming. Do you also keep the Elevation Window dynamically linked to the model? I am always afraid of deleting a part of the model without realizing it when working in the Elevation Window.

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

TomWaltz — Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:11:52 GMT

jdrulon wrote:
When you do as you are suggesting do you try to use any of the information from the model as is or do you trace over everything and put these 2D lines on separate layers that can be locked or turned off? Trying to get the walls, slab and roofs to clean up properly in the 3D mode is difficult and time consuming. Do you also keep the Elevation Window dynamically linked to the model? I am always afraid of deleting a part of the model without realizing it when working in the Elevation Window.

In these cases, everything that is modeled is used for the construction document. Usually, it is all walls, roofs, and slabs, with simple doors & windows (no trim, sills, etc). Nothing is traced over, and all of it is linked to the model. In section views, the Display Option for doors & windows is set to "Ceiling plan", so that actual windows are drawn in the openings created by the Archicad windows.

I've found cleaning these drawings up to be really quick and easy, as has my staff of 25. I cannot say why your experience has been so difficult.

It does take a little getting used to the idea that any changes made to one view are made in another (even unintentional ones, like deleting something you did not intend to), but the benefits of being able to make plan changes in the elevation or being able to use the label tools to label roof pitches or window types far outweight the drawbacks.

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:20:14 GMT

Tom, I am a newbie when it comes to stuff like this.. can you clip some images and show us what you mean? I have spent a good deal of money buying as many 3D parts as I can, figuring that I will save some time in the CD prep process (i.e., Real Doors & Windows, Trim, ArchiTile, etc.) Is this the wrong approach? I do want to streamline the CD production process.

Thanks.

+pablo

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:57:47 GMT

These thoughts echo my current concerns, finishing up my first, quite simple, model in AC...I am finding it challenging to get my various roofs and walls and ceiling slabs to really clean up well at all, and in section, I therefore have to reckon with extra lines that shouldn't be there. My solution to that was to model all elements in the same material, to help the elements to work together seamlessly...however, there are still extra lines. I don't know how to work around these...if there were NO lines, I could draw lines IN, but as there are extra lines, I don't know what to do to get rid of them, without exploding the drawings, which I don't want to do. What am I missing here?

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

ArchiTAD — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:27:47 GMT

Unfortunately, there have always been and always will be extra lines. My office is committed to modeling everything (residential projects) in 3D and reaping the benefits in our construction documents. My staff has become quite proficient using ArchiForma to quickly model elements that ArchiCAD's parametric objects cannot give us (window/door trims, window/door cutups, etc.). Our elevations and sections are always live. I've created a simple "Block-out Fill" favorite that is used to cover unwanted lines, everything is done in ArchiCAD with PlotMaker being used only to publish our documents. In fact, most of my staff doesn't know that PlotMaker has drafting capabilities! Blocking out is usually the last step in our construction documents process. This technique allows us to quickly view our model from any direction and include 3D views in our construction documents, with all building elements shown!

I stopped exploding my sections/elevations years ago and have focused on using the inherant 3D capabilities of ArchiCAD ... much more fun and efficient ... CD times have been cut way down ... changes are picked up throughout the plans with much less effort and errors!

Tom

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

TomWaltz — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:11:50 GMT

Pablo wrote:
Tom, I am a newbie when it comes to stuff like this.. can you clip some images and show us what you mean? I have spent a good deal of money buying as many 3D parts as I can, figuring that I will save some time in the CD prep process (i.e., Real Doors & Windows, Trim, ArchiTile, etc.) Is this the wrong approach? I do want to streamline the CD production process.

Thanks.

+pablo

Sorry, I've been slammed lately and have not been on the board so much. I think part of the key is knowing what to model and what not to. Below are a few ideas:

Model with materials assigned, so you do not have to draw fills in manually.

I think most doors can be convincing in elevation if you take advantage of the "Custom" panel options. Likewise, most the SmartParts windows allows custom grille patterns.

Yes, I like SmartParts a lot. It sounds like a lot of money, but I like it a lot better than the Archicad library for doors, windows, and trim.

You can make your large scale sections more convincing if your forget about making the Archicad objects look right in section. Use the Display Options to set your windows to Ceiling Mode, and you will only see the opening. Then you can draw whatever window frame & mullion assembly you need. (Ideally saved as an object and re-used throughout the project).

The vast majority of trim conditions can be dealt with using either the SmartParts EasyTrim object or the CADimage 3D Profiler.

I routinely repeat to my staff: "Model to 1/4" scale." If your plans, building elevations, building sections, and interior elevations all match, you can REALLY fly. Even simple trim such as tile bases and tile tub surrounds are modeled in most projects. Is it easier to draw four 1/4"x4" walls with a tile material or to draw hatch on every elevation, cutting out all the gaps?

"Trim to Roof" and Solid Element commands are critical for making walls, slabs, and roofs to clean up in section. It takes a while to learn how to intersect a slab with a sloping roof, or make a slab cut through all layers of a composite wall except the plywood sheathing. The brick cap in the attached screenshot is an Operator with the brick wall below as a target, and is Subtracting with Upward Extrustion. Move the cap, and the brick follows it. The brick wall is 9'-4" high, allowing for the cap to be deleted and have the brick continue to the next story.

In the attached screenshot, all you see are walls, slabs, a mesh for the brick cap, a roof for the thickened haunch, and a custom 3D fascia/gutter object I made. You will not that the soffit is not modeled. I have a 2D "stamp" to place in there, since you only really see it in a couple sections, not in any exterior or interior elevations.

I think some other addtions depend on your scope of work. If you do a lot of tilework, then ArchiTile makes sense. If you only ever make single-color tile bases, it's not worth it.

I always find it shocking when people think some libraries on Objects Online are expensive. Let's talk about SmartParts. Yes, $495 is a lot of money.... to an individual. To a company, it's probably 3 to 4 billable hours. You could pay twice as much and still make your money back. I have an object on there "Stretchy Masonry". It's a simple kit of 4 objects that draw 2D brick and block courses. It's $70. Will you save 1 billable hour to pay for this? It should save that much multiple times over on the first project. Personally, I believe most purchased objects pay for themselves on the first project they are used on.

To answer your question, I believe it is a good idea to buy custom objects instead of making them yourself, unless you have a lot of free time or enough employees to see the payback. The hardest part there is determining whether the object you buy meets your needs, or if it will require modifcation after the purchase.

I also think it takes a solid knowledge of how to combine the tools that come with Archicad in order to be able to optimize your modeling practices.

Re: Redundant lines generated in Elevation/ Section Drawings

TomWaltz — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:17:15 GMT

ArchiTAD wrote:
Unfortunately, there have always been and always will be extra lines. My office is committed to modeling everything (residential projects) in 3D and reaping the benefits in our construction documents. My staff has become quite proficient using ArchiForma to quickly model elements that ArchiCAD's parametric objects cannot give us (window/door trims, window/door cutups, etc.). Our elevations and sections are always live. I've created a simple "Block-out Fill" favorite that is used to cover unwanted lines, everything is done in ArchiCAD with PlotMaker being used only to publish our documents. In fact, most of my staff doesn't know that PlotMaker has drafting capabilities! Blocking out is usually the last step in our construction documents process. This technique allows us to quickly view our model from any direction and include 3D views in our construction documents, with all building elements shown!

I stopped exploding my sections/elevations years ago and have focused on using the inherant 3D capabilities of ArchiCAD ... much more fun and efficient ... CD times have been cut way down ... changes are picked up throughout the plans with much less effort and errors!

Same here. Plotmaker's drafting tools are good for break lines and match lines, but that's about it!