topic AC Font Size is wrong for all text? in Documentation

AC Font Size is wrong for all text?

Eduardo Rolon — Tue, 27 Feb 2024 12:02:20 GMT

Is this incorrect?

Recently I had to import a specific PDF which had specific font sizes that I had to keep.

After import and exploding the PDF the point size in AC was wrong.

It had not changed size since the drawing was at 1:1 scale but what was 18pts in Pages, Illustrator, Affinity Designer, was "reported" as 12.5 pts in AC.

If I set the font size in AC and then exported the PDF what in AC was 18 pts became 25.4 pts in every other graphics program. Size didn't change.

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Why is this important?

Cad Standards minimum size for dimension text is 2.5mm which converts to 7.0xx points.

As architects we are trained to place as much information as possible in the drawings and this is why we try to use the smallest font size allowed.

If you selected 7pts as your default size you have actually been using 9.9 point size.

This means that you spent more time trying to fit/arrange dimensions because of their size.

If you were required to comply to a specific fonts sizes for a project (I had 2 where they were specific about this, one of them US Federal requirements, the other for a multinational) then you are not complying.

I have no idea what the legal implications are, but at a minimum I certified that I complied with all of my clients requirements as part of the project close out and this is not true. At least the font sizes are bigger than the required ones.

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How long has this been the case?

No idea but I defined my favorites a long time ago and I had not noticed any size change. IIRC there were some grumblings during Betas were fonts were behaving incorrectly but the fixes were not considered important enough to be fixed.

Tried it in AC25 with the same reults

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Hope that I am wrong but it looks like I'll be redefining favorites and updating dim size in my current projects besides talking with my insurance…

Somebody else needs to check the MM sizes and AC's windows version…

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Fonts size set in AC:

Exported as PDF and opened in Affinity Designer 36 pts is reported as 50.8 for all three font types:

In Affinity placed another set of fonts with the "correct" size:

Importing the PDF into AC and exploding. The correct font sizes are shown as:

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

Karl Ottenstein — Sun, 25 Feb 2024 20:26:33 GMT

Great detail, Eduardo. I have a dim memory (all memories are dim these days) that this was discussed at length in the past and that Graphisoft admitted to computing 'font metrics' incorrectly... including descenders and ascenders (including accent marks etc) improperly when computing the displayed point size... which is of course supposed to be exactly 72 points to the inch for the main character - NOT including descenders/ascenders/accents. E.g., an uppercase "A" at 72 points should measure one inch. If there is an accent mark on top, e.g., Á, Ä ... the "A" itself is still supposed to be 1" tall ... with the accent above that.

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

Eduardo Rolon — Sun, 25 Feb 2024 21:57:00 GMT

I remember that one which also included the lines spacing issue that can be seen in the screenshots. At least the fonts have the correct size, it is the displayed size in the Info Box which is incorrect.

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 26 Feb 2024 02:17:19 GMT

At least other items that use Points as their units are correct.

24 Pt Grid circle from AC and 24 pt circle from AD

You know which one is from AC from the lovely segmentations…

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

AllanP — Mon, 26 Feb 2024 02:47:13 GMT

Have you even wondered if everybody else is wrong and Archicad is correct?

Using Archicad 25 7000 AUS FULL

the red "A" is published from non-American Archicad,

Arial Narrow

set to 25.4mm

measured in bluebeam review, scale 1:10 = aprox 256mm

put in yellow "A" at 72 points

put in orange "A" at 7 points, its not 25mm, but 17.82mm at scale 1:10

I bring the PDF back into archicad,

The red A is still 25.4,

the 72point text from Bluebeam Revu = 17.99mm

and the 7point text is 1.75mm

have you checked what the output is, not what a program tells you?

that looks close to 1 inch to me...

don't confuse architectural text size with point size....

remember that point size is not the size of the "A" but the height of the character set, so 7point is not 2.5mm high text cap height, which is what Archicad measures...

Out of interest, can someone with AC USA edition post the physical measurement of a 72point Archicad text...Capital "A", Arial Narrow, so we all know the if its measurement 11, or measurement 13.

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 26 Feb 2024 12:20:14 GMT

Kind of went off-topic there?

The issue is not font size is the "size displayed".

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Don't think that the judge will accept the defense that "Every single graphic design and regular software is wrong and AC is the only one right…" defense.

I created a list of font sizes in Word, Pages, Illustrator, Affinity Designer, and exported them to PDF.
All those PDFs reported the same sizes in each other "imports".
When importing those into AC the Info Box Display size indicated a different size
Exporting the exploded PDFs with the "wrong size" and opening them again in other software then reported the original size. For example 18 pts in Illustrator is shown as 12.75 pts in AC and the published PDF from AC opened in Designer says it is 18pts
From this I infer that AC's Info Box is wrong since it is reporting a different size.
PDFs created in Revit, Autocad and Rhino match the font size from everyone else except AC. I can't believe the amount of time that I have wasted "fixing" fonts displaying 7.088 pts from PDFs imported were the text was the correct 2.5mm

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 26 Feb 2024 12:45:26 GMT

New test:

Point size in AD = 18pt
Point size Exploded PDF in AC = 12.75
this equals a 70.833333 % difference

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If I specify 20mm font size in Affinity and import to AC, size in AC should be 20*70.8 = ±14.16mm

And checking in AC:

Actual size is not changing. If text size in info box displays 20 everything is ok

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 26 Feb 2024 13:00:15 GMT

Starting from AC:

14.66 mm should display in AD as 20mm
20mm font from AC should display as:
- 20mm / 70.8% = ±28.25 mm

Affinity

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 26 Feb 2024 13:33:44 GMT

Another test to confirm that AC is wrong:

Requirement is to place 10mm text in a 60mm by 10mm box in a letter size page.

Affinity Designer:

AC:

And in Adobe Illustrator to rest my case:

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

DGSketcher — Mon, 26 Feb 2024 15:13:45 GMT

Interesting observation Eduardo. Thankfully I just use millimetre heights, so I may have avoided the issue.

Just to add to the confusion does the choice of OS have any bearing on your results e.g. have you also done import / export between OS versions of the software?

The reason I ask is my messages generated in Apple Mail are frequently returned quoting my original message. My part of the returned message can see the font size & sometimes the actual font changed. I appreciate emails aren't CAD files, but it could be a factor, and if Apple & Microsoft don't want to change the process you may never get a consistent result as each software company tries to resolve how to display their fonts in competing OS environments.

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 26 Feb 2024 16:04:35 GMT

Don't think that working in mm helps, though OS might make a difference.

If you draw the 60x10 mm box in AC, the 10mm Text will not fit while it does on all of the other apps I have tried…

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

AllanP — Mon, 26 Feb 2024 22:25:21 GMT

Everybody in this thread has missed the point.

"Why is this important?

Cad Standards minimum size for dimension text is 2.5mm which converts to 7.0xx points."

2.5mm text in architectural drawing is NOT a 7point font in other programs.

It IS text that touches 2 lines 2.5mm apart...

You can show me 1000 programs that say the same thing, but that is "WRONG" for architectural drawing standards, which measure the height of the character, not the height of the box that the characters all fit in.

The height is the capital "M" from the Top to the Bottom of the capital character, not the height of the font set.

Please show me a document for physical drafting where it says there is a significant gap between the guide lines for the letters and the text being drawn.

It is a shame that for the American version of Archicad they use a term for the capital character text height which doesn't match the standards for other programs that describe it in font set heights, and has led to confusion, but it is correct in the rest of the Archicad versions that use millimeters to measure the text height.

even the example shows the text being 10mm in the previous example, look the "1" and the "t" are 10mm high 🙂

I think that everybody here who has commented about things fitting in boxes are too young to have drawn by hand and do not know what text height is on a piece of paper.

The Architectural University I went to was a psychometric one that looked at how people experience the environment, so we learnt about how aging people need text to be larger, hence a minimum of 2.5mm (character height and in capitals) to be readable by supervisors/experienced (older) people on site.

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text?

Eduardo Rolon — Wed, 28 Feb 2024 01:32:58 GMT

Not young enough based on my drawings…

OK, think I have it now.

AC measures "Font Height" which is different from "Font Size" so the rule is "minimum text HEIGHT has to be 2.5mm" not 25mm font Size.

So for my projects that specified 18 pts size if I want to use AC then I need to use the ±70% scale.

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This shouldn't say Size it should say Font Height.

and the wish could be to have both measurements so that I can avoid this brain fart in the future…

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As you wrote in your first post "AC is right and everybody else in the world is wrong…" but in truth everybody is right…

PS.

IIRC text in the hand drawing is 2mm with a 1mm gap.

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

Eduardo Rolon — Tue, 27 Feb 2024 03:35:31 GMT

Arial Narrow is a little bit taller.

D-Din and Avenir Condensed hit the size perfectly

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

AllanP — Tue, 27 Feb 2024 05:27:45 GMT

ahh... the Asch conformity study.

Remember for drafting and graphic design there are different answers.

sometime you just have to make a favorite from an imported text size to set things to the "Other peoples" standards.

as Prof. Harold Marshall use to ask:

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"

answer:

"Yes and No.

It makes an objective sound, the physical wave movement of the air,

But it doesn't make a subjective sound, an observer interpreting the sound"

Hopefully anybody reading this can work out what Archicad does differently from Graphics/word programs,

that is why I added this description of the font parameters.

Archicad its value 11 for text height, design programs its value 13 for font size...completely different measurements.

the difference in your example is a factor of 51/72 = 0.70833333333333333333

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

Eduardo Rolon — Tue, 27 Feb 2024 12:07:14 GMT

Cap Height, better than Font Height, and not Font Size?

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text

AllanP — Tue, 27 Feb 2024 22:29:40 GMT

Eduardo, make a wish/request to Graphisoft to change/fix the name...it should say "Capital Height and Rotation" or "Text Height and Rotation", as it refers to text size not font size.

The hardest part of making library parts isn't the the coding, but naming of the variable in the interface so everyone understands them.

Re: AC Font Size is wrong for all text?

Oleksandra Vakariuk — Mon, 18 Mar 2024 15:48:47 GMT

Hi @Eduardo Rolon,

Thank you for highlighting this to us! And thank you, @AllanP for your contribution!

Indeed, the naming in this case should be more precise. I've added a wish for this to our system.

Kind regards,

Oleksandra