ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

[Djordje]

Canadians, are you ready?

There is a proposal on Revit discussion group to organize a shootout.

http://www.zoogdesign.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1806

Good idea! With good people on both sides this can turn into a VERY interesting event!

[David Bearss]

A shootout would be interesting. As a former Revit user I am a little curious to see how it has evolved since they were acquired.

[Anonymous]

Sounds good to me. I have never seen the two side by side (or head to head).

I've helped Geoff Langdon with several of his CADD Shootout events but Revit was never represented. Perhaps Geoff would be interested in helping out. His past experience with the live events could be helpful and he is the most widely experienced architectural CAD expert I know. (He has occasionally posted to this forum.)

Revit certainly has many advanced features due to its recent "clean slate" origins, while ArchiCAD has the maturity and sofistication that comes from years of refinement. I, for one, would like to see both programs grow and prosper through heathy competition (and copying each other's ideas) so that we may all have the best possible stuff in the future. (Remember that despite all the Mac/PC bashing that goes on, neither would be nearly as good without the other.)

[David Collins]

I sat in on this year's ShootOut at Build Boston in November. Actually, "shootout" is the wrong term because Geoff had turned the event into a pro bono charette for a real project. Commendable, of course, but as a "shootout" it was as interesting as watching paint dry.

Participants were encouraged to participate with their software of choice and interestingly, most of the teams were using ArchiCad. At one point, Geoff was asked about the absence of Revit and he mysteriously replied that he had an opinion concerning why it wasn't in evidence, but declined to share it with us. He was also doing a workshop on 'Cad and the Small Firm" at the same conference and perhaps didn't want to duplicate too much information for the sake of people who were going to attend that workshop as well.

Geoff? Are you there? Care to comment?

[Anonymous]

This year the event was called the CAD challenge rather than shoot-out because of the format change. From what I understand it was becoming difficult to impossible to get enough vendors to sponsor teams (for a variety of reasons). I believe that Geoff is trying to find a new way to convey a meaningful comparison of the different CAD softwares and how people use them in a real situation.

In previous years it was a true shoot-out and quite intense for the participants. It seems his experience with these previous event could be informative in setting up this one (AC v Revit).

I assume that this event would be web based. Does anyone have some ideas as to how it might be structured?
- Who would create the program? (A neutral party presumably.)
- Who would execute the work? (Vendors and/or users.)
- What would be the constraints? (Time, staff etc.)
- How would it be presented? (What are the deliverables?)

[vfrontiers]

Matthew wrote:
This year the event was called the CAD challenge rather than shoot-out because of the format change. From what I understand it was becoming difficult to impossible to get enough vendors to sponsor teams (for a variety of reasons). I believe that Geoff is trying to find a new way to convey a meaningful comparison of the different CAD softwares and how people use them in a real situation.

In previous years it was a true shoot-out and quite intense for the participants. It seems his experience with these previous event could be informative in setting up this one (AC v Revit).

I assume that this event would be web based. Does anyone have some ideas as to how it might be structured?
- Who would create the program? (A neutral party presumably.)
- Who would execute the work? (Vendors and/or users.)
- What would be the constraints? (Time, staff etc.)
- How would it be presented? (What are the deliverables?)

I guess that would depend on what you are actually after as a result of this "shootout". My impression has always been that you need to EXTRACT OUT the "Architecture" and emphasize the CAD... So it should not be a DESIGN charrette but a PRESENTATION charrette.

My proposal would be to create a typical PROGRAM AND provide a SOLUTION in graphic or written form. Maybe even the DESIGNER's Napkin Sketches. From here, each team would be responsible to PRESENT it with the software of choice. I would suggest providing the PROGRAM ahead of time while showing the SOLUTION only once the competition has started. That way, the teams can gear up for Commercial or Residential or Medical, etc. without "cheating".

The output should be prescriptive in the sense that there are MANDATORY drawings to show while leaving the complete presentation up to the team. Teams could get EXTRA CREDIT for some creative use of the tool or presentation idea. It would be my preference to have not only RENDERINGS mandatory, but plans and sections and elevations as well.

Then you will have to consider if the teams are allowed to use MORE than just their own program. I would suggest that 3rd Party software designed specifically for the main software be allowed, therefore we can have ZOOM GDL, etc. and AutoCAD can have ADT and so on.

Each team should be able to sponsor their own members. I would prefer that the manufacturer's actually sponsor them, but that could mean some "selection" process would be necessary [like tryouts or pro sports draft]...

Just some ideas to start! Happy holidays!... I better get to sleep, so Santa can bring me my new G5/3ghz Quad Processor!

[MMontgomery]

Just curious to know, whatever came of this?

I've been reading the Revit forums a bit lately and I've noticed a few things that Revit is unable to do that we seem to take for granted - i.e the special snap points, relative construction constraints, sketch rendering...etc. (Does Revit have anything comparable to the Omnipotent Magic Wand?) I'd be interested to see what things Revit can do that ArchiCAD can't - beyond the things like 'ease of use' which can be so subjective and meaningless once you've learned the program.

Cheers!

[Scott Davis]

Special Snap Points? relative construction constraints? Omnipotent Magic Wand?

Can you explain these tools?

Revit does not yet have sketch rendering, but it has been requested, and I expect it will be in a upcoming release.

[Djordje]

Scott wrote:
Special Snap Points? relative construction constraints? Omnipotent Magic Wand?

1. Special Snap Points - any existinfg linear element or the edge of a polygonal element is divided to given number of dicisions, or by lenght or distance, by the full lentght or the part defined bty two intersections

2. Relative construction constraints: Perpendicular, parallel, bisectrix, offset, multiple offset, and a free floating Special Snap Points tool

3. Magic Wand - can generate any polygonal element to any closed or almost closed outline (scloses the outline automatically) or trace any linear element along the polygon's perimeter. Also can be used for subtracting, joining, adding polygonal elements. The main culprit fora house in six clicks.

More info needed?

For detailed explanation with movies, find the Archimaster Web site (lost the link, sorry!)

[Scott Davis]

I've noticed a few things that Revit is unable to do that we seem to take for granted

1. Special Snap Points - any existinfg linear element or the edge of a polygonal element is divided to given number of dicisions, or by lenght or distance, by the full lentght or the part defined bty two intersections

I think that Revit has its own way of defining the 'special snap points', but the concepts are similar. Curtain walls, in particular, divide by halves, thirds, quarters, etc,. or dimensions whether visible or not can be placed to control lengths of objects. For instance, I can place four windows in a wall, dimension to the center of each window, and set an 'equal' constraint. These windows will now remain eqidistant from each other. If I grab one and move it, the other react accordingly.

2. Relative construction constraints: Perpendicular, parallel, bisectrix, offset, multiple offset, and a free floating Special Snap Points tool

Revit has all of these, just with different terminology. Geometry 'snaps' to other geometry, or displays 'apparent' snaps with reference lines.

3. Magic Wand - can generate any polygonal element to any closed or almost closed outline (scloses the outline automatically) or trace any linear element along the polygon's perimeter. Also can be used for subtracting, joining, adding polygonal elements. The main culprit fora house in six clicks.

Revit tools react in the same way, its not magical. I can use the 'pick' tool to trace underlying DWG lines, or Revit geometry. TAB key while hovering over a line with the pick tool will select the chain of elements. The only thing missing is a 'close' option, although the program will highlight where the opening occurs, and a quick fillet tool will close the sketch. I expect a 'close' option to be added soon.