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ArchiCAD & Generative Components (Grasshopper+Geometry Gym)

Anonymous
Not applicable
What does ArchiCAD have to do with GC's?

According to Geometry-Gym, quite a bit!

Geometry Gym develop an IFC plugin for Grasshopper,
while Grasshopper have developed the most mind boggling
generative components synthesizer for Rhino(cerous).

Being a BIM architect in this day and age and NOT knowing
of these tools means you have gone missing.
Wake Up!

My final comment is: Who will develop such tools for GDL?

Gil

Links:
http://www.grasshopper3d.com/
http://geometrygym.blogspot.com/
http://ssi.wikidot.com/start
69 REPLIES 69

Anonymous
Not applicable
ArchiStair?

Ever get the feeling the bus left without you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggwPyU2Wn74&feature=related

Anonymous
Not applicable
Thanks for your posts Gil - if anything just reminding the rank and file ArchiCAD user of what their software doesn't do. But then there are so many areas that are lagging it is rather depressing.
A sub par renderer poorly implemented
Lack of visual 3d modelling toolset incl basic commands such as rotate
Lack of relationships between elements
I could go on but when people have to defend the status quo by criticising a style of architecture as irrelevant you know you are in trouble

Keep up the prodding I say - hopefully it will send a message to someone, somewhere that some giant steps are needed in a hurry!!!

Anonymous
Not applicable
Hi rwallis,
I have been using AC for over 10 years now, mainly
for its great strengths at productivity and keeping my back covered
in terms of reducing design errors and integrity. The software HAS
evolved over time, and I suppose I put in much effort to learn new
tips & tricks, features and work methods to improve my output.
However -
I came to realize that probably no software out there has the DREAM SET
of features - see how we use Photoshop, Rendering Platforms and others
to fully compliment our work. Even Autocad has its place!

This post started out with Pointing to the linkage of
Rhino - Grasshopper - Geometry Gym (IFC) - Archicad.

This is a new "Cocktail" we can make use of, especially thanks to
the evolving IFC spec. Things are not perfect yet, but I am hoping
the more talk is generated about these topics on this forum, the
better Graphisoft get a nudge in what could be done:

I don't think it would be that impossible to create a GDL based
"Generative Components" system within AC, or as a plugin.

My 2 cents.

Anonymous
Not applicable
Agreed Gil.
The resources of GS cannot cover everything, however where there is a gap there needs to be a meaningful bridge to other solutions.

At present a big battle I can see in the BIM world is that of 'native' vs IFC,
i.e. one software pretty much does everything vs. different software that can collaborate.
Ideally I like the second. Without reliable translation though it becomes less viable.
With translation one must consider - not just that the geometry is maintained - but (for example) what do we get in ArchiCAD when we bring in an amazing form from Rhino after some grasshopper magic? A big uneditable lump? How do things like doors and windows get inserted into it? Can zones relate to it? Are any components of it able to be scheduled? A big ask, but if it fails these tests - the whole basis of BIM gets weakened....

Anonymous
Not applicable
With advanced GDL is possible to make generative accessories and objects .
But no pressure until now . Grasshopper Generative Components is only for max 5% of today architecture . I want not forget the 95% .
Must have more essential tools developed inside archicad . The Generative Components can be done in others app. and imported in archicad .

Import - Export is the future of such particular BIM aspects .
rwallis has right - intelligent bridges between specialized programs is a more efficient approach.

Anonymous
Not applicable
That is a topic I've been trying to start for a while now, without much success.
Hope this time you will get more engagement due to your clear explaination of what it is about.

Archicad was the first real parameric modeller, and still has many advantages over others.
You can't go long in parametrics in Revit, but it is good at BIM.
In Grasshopper you have good Parametricity but no BIM.
Archicad could have the best of two worlds.
(by parametrics I mean building an algorithm that generates a geometry according to parameters and logical relations. In revit you can only have very simple relations)

You could build GDL objects in the same way that you build a GS diagram.
And you could use GS-like diagrams to apply operations on the BIM elements of a project.

Then there is this: there is only 5% of architects using the parametric possibilities. But that is not relevant, a program has to open possibilities even if this is not "needed". If this possibilities are interesting more and more users will use it and that is them it will be talked about.

Graphisoft should modernize GDL and take advantage of its real strength .

Anonymous
Not applicable
Olivier wrote:
You could build GDL objects in the same way that you build a GS diagram.
And you could use GS-like diagrams to apply operations on the BIM elements of a project.
...
Graphisoft should modernize GDL and take advantage of its real strength .
OK - I'll tip you off now -
Yes, You can IMPORT the results of a Grasshopper routine, either as
DXF or hopefully as IFC (Geometry Gym) - BUT...

One can create GDL objects that can directly READ text files
created in Grasshopper.... (pause) ... ! ! !


I also want to bring up the issue of Master Scripts "Mesh Generator"
( http://www.masterscript.nl/01/product.php?id_product=37 )

Watch Closely -
An object or set of objects is created that can REPORT discreet
3D co-ordinates to a txt file via the LIST scheme.
The same file is READ back by the AC14 "Surveyor Data to Mesh"
option. B R I L I A N T ! ! !

🙂
Gil

Anonymous
Not applicable
Importing 3d model is nothing new (althought I find AC very bad when it comes to importing other file formats)

Making a 'link' between two programs (in this case grasshopper and AC) is the aim. And importing or defining it as a wall or a roof etc..
We don't need grasshopper by graphisoft inside AC, but I would kill for a grasshopper plug in.

Anonymous
Not applicable
Hi All,

Interesting comments and debate, good to see.

I'm the developer of the Geometry Gym plugins, and the software is licensed "software as a service". This includes support and advise (and new features) to ensure the model exchange meets the requirements that you have (between Rhino, Grasshopper and ArchiCAD via IFC).

Whiteman, the main reason you would choose IFC over a neutral geometric format (such as dxf or iges) is to apply attributes such as material, purpose (roof, beam, slab, stair, window etc), assign to a building, building level etc. All those attributes can be assigned within Grasshopper using my plugin.

I don't get to promote to many of the commercial uses of my plugins, but as I'm involved in this one it's a little easier. This render presents a new canopy at Ballito Lifestyle Mall (in South Africa). It was rendered in Archicad at Evolution (www.evolutionarchitectscc.com/ )



The Steel grid and glass panels were developed and arranged in Grasshopper, the geometric model was exported to Archicad using IFC for geometric checks and detail development, and the structural analysis model sent to structural engineer (www.nessconsulting.co.za/) using the Oasys GSA plugin.

If anyone has any questions or wants to learn more, please post here or contact me directly.

Cheers,

Jon

Anonymous
Not applicable
Great work..
Could you show the wireframe of that model in archicad? I would like to see how it handles it in polygon level.

Anonymous
Not applicable
@whiteman I think that archicad is no good handle a lot of polygons. In the picture above i need to reduce the numbers of polygons because the redraw was very slowly in sections... In other tread I ask if there is any improvement about this but not lucky.

(this sample wasn't made whit grasshopper)

Geometry wrote:
Hi All,

Interesting comments and debate, good to see.

I'm the developer of the Geometry Gym plugins, and the software is licensed "software as a service". This includes support and advise (and new features) to ensure the model exchange meets the requirements that you have (between Rhino, Grasshopper and ArchiCAD via IFC).

Whiteman, the main reason you would choose IFC over a neutral geometric format (such as dxf or iges) is to apply attributes such as material, purpose (roof, beam, slab, stair, window etc), assign to a building, building level etc. All those attributes can be assigned within Grasshopper using my plugin.

I don't get to promote to many of the commercial uses of my plugins, but as I'm involved in this one it's a little easier. This render presents a new canopy at Ballito Lifestyle Mall (in South Africa). It was rendered in Archicad at Evolution (www.evolutionarchitectscc.com/ )



The Steel grid and glass panels were developed and arranged in Grasshopper, the geometric model was exported to Archicad using IFC for geometric checks and detail development, and the structural analysis model sent to structural engineer (www.nessconsulting.co.za/) using the Oasys GSA plugin.

If anyone has any questions or wants to learn more, please post here or contact me directly.

Cheers,

Jon
Wow.

That geometry must have been painful with a capital "P" to handle inside ArchiCAD.

We all know how ArchiCAD begins to choke up on high polygon count objects, so I Can imagine it would have been any fun importing, handling and trying to document a structure like that inside ArchiCAD.

I would just build and document it from within Rhino and then merge the 2D representations as linework into ArchiCAD on a separate layer.

Supposedly ArchiCAD's ability to handle high polycount objects has been improved in AC15 in light of the new modeling tools and capability, but I still habour a lot of doubts as to just how far this "improved" ability extends.

Anonymous
Not applicable
I'm not sure the polygon count is that high? Every piece of glass is planar, and steel member straight. Our steel grid member count is around 1600.

I'm not an Archicad expert, so unfortunately I can't advise much on render settings and importing and model performance (but I have advised the person at Evolution about this forum so he might respond). I do know for some reason, they did use ACv13 to import and save up a version, ACv14 would not open the ifc files (it may be I need to adjust the data slightly).

I have posted some benchmarking ifc files if anyone wishes to try importing themselves, including the Grasshopper definition that assigns the IFC attributes for a similar project, the British Museum Great Court Roof. This includes partial models (with lower element counts). This doesn't include glass and orientations are not normal to roof surface, the mesh relaxation technique is studied in an earlier post on my blog.
http://ssi.wikidot.com/local--files/2011-blog-posts/110519%20Great%20Court%20Roof%20ifc%20models%20and%20grasshopper.zip



If you wish to test the Grasshopper plugin, installation instructions are here
http://www.grasshopper3d.com/group/geometrygym/forum/topics/installing-geometry-gym

We did study and test a few variations for exchanging the fabrication model for the roof grid (including orientation, length and possibly end miters) but in end elected for a custom means of exporting this.

Anonymous
Not applicable
I am very interested in this topic..
Unfortunately, I don't know much about AC native programing language, or GDL.. But, I've worked in grasshopper for some time now, and I love it.
What I was wondering, if it could be possible to save somehow a GDL object from grasshopper? So we could somehow define paremeters that could be transformed into gdl object?
Maybe this is no possible, again, I know very little about gdl and programing

Anonymous
Not applicable
GDL generation from Grasshopper looks plausible (from the quick glance I've just taken of it), in a similar manner to the way I've enabled IFC generation.

It would need sufficient interest to make it a "priority" development, so either post here or let me know directly. If there is a useful example that could be used as a pilot, that would also help.

Cheers,

Jon

Anonymous
Not applicable
Hello ! This is a very interesting topic. I have tried in the past to import into AC 14 an organic shape made in Revit but it only recognized the standard vertical and horizontal geometry. How did you import this organic mesh? Is it seen in AC as a network of beams?

Anonymous
Not applicable
Hi Coty82,

You can test the import for yourself (I don't have access to archicad myself) from the ifc files included in this zip file:
http://ssi.wikidot.com/local--files/2011-blog-posts/110519%20Great%20Court%20Roof%20ifc%20models%20a...

Note that the architect was using AC v13 to import (we never got to the bottom of why v14 couldn't read it), I haven't had any reports about success or not in v15.

Revit can be particular about whether items are "beams" or "columns" so it's possible that might be related to your issue about non vertical or horizontal elements.

I'm happy to advise further.

Cheers, Jon

Anonymous
Not applicable
I `v been able to open it in AC 14 but it seems that some of the beams are not visible. When i check their settings, and choose undo roof trim, they do appear (the green ones wich are selected)
I quess there must be a problem in AC 14. .
Also, would it be able to open circular beams? Because as you mentioned, i see that all beams are straight
AC 14 load2.jpg

Anonymous
Not applicable
Hi,

Interesting that as you first mentioned, it only seems to show horizontal members. If anyone can comment on this, I'll gladly produce variations of this model that might lead to all members being generated.

IFC can convey non linear members, to be IFC certified for coordination it is not mandatory to acknowledge many of the useful shape representations available. Typical software venders would "mesh" a non linear element into a faceted brep.

If you want to try, I posted some shape representation folders (including revolved profile) to test at this blog entry:
http://geometrygym.blogspot.com/2010/12/ifc-shape-representations.html

Cheers, Jon

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