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Archicad 16 and PHPP?

Anonymous
Not applicable
Hi everyone,
I'm playing for the first time with Archicad 16 and I'm looking for the button to export data to the PHPP: where is it?

Thanks!

Enrico
54 REPLIES 54

Anonymous
Not applicable
I just found out that the PHPP-export feature is no longer available in Archicad 16, which - in my mind - is a huge step back for Graphisoft as far as business strategy.

What is Graphisoft thinking?

Do you really think that integrating EcoDesigner into Archicad would be enough for any designer who is serios about energy efficiency???

aahatimo
Newcomer
i hope that feature is just hidden, thought i saw that as a feature. if not, really a big let down.
please someone from gs let us know it is not so!
planning on going to the phius national conference in sept in denver and was hoping to be able to use / show that new feature.
tim hanagan
aaha! design studio durango, co
27" retina 5k iMac 4ghz i7 os 10.13.6 m395x 4 mb, 32gb ram, 512 gb ssd ac 22 current
15" retina mbp 2.6ghz 1mb 16gb ac 22 current[/size]

Anonymous
Not applicable
As of yesterday, I started sending one tweet per day to Graphisoft, asking why they discontinued the PHPP export option. I am going to continue doing this until I receive an answer, which I am going to publish here.

I also posted the same question yesterday on the Facebook page of Archicad: again, no answer.

rjwilden
Contributor
So what is actually new in Energy evaluation.
Other than a new way to input data, and having to place all the zones manually it all appears much the same. The report sheet is exactly the same as the previous version, So no added value there. Is it more accurate ? Who knows. Easier to use. Dont think so.
Richard Wilden Design. Ltd
Dunedin, New Zealand.
Imac 27" i9 3.6GHz; 32GB Ram Mac OS 11.3
Archicad V23:V24

Karl Ottenstein
Moderator
rjwilden wrote:
So what is actually new in Energy evaluation.
Other than a new way to input data, and having to place all the zones manually it all appears much the same. The report sheet is exactly the same as the previous version, So no added value there. Is it more accurate ? Who knows. Easier to use. Dont think so.
I don't think much is earth shattering about it, other than it is free to all users now and built into ArchiCAD ... but yet there are still a few powerful things that the old EcoDesigner couldn't do - in particular, if you have a building on a sloping site, the new Energy Evaluation uses the site mesh to recognize the portions of walls that are below or above grade. There was no way to account for this in EcoDesigner which was an add-on, vs the new fully-integrated functionality.

Several other new things are shown in the videos here:
http://www.graphisoft.com/products/archicad/green.html

...and other new features are listed here:
http://www.archicadwiki.com/ArchiCAD16ChangesGuide#Changes_in_Energy_Evaluation

Cheers,
Karl
One of the forum moderators   •   AC 25 USA and earlier   •   MacOS 11.6.6, iMac Pro

Anonymous
Not applicable
Karl, I appreciate your optimistic answer.

In my mind, things look in a different way:

Withount any, ANY validation paper, EcoDesigner is worth NOTHING. It's just a greenwash add-on that designers with no energy evaluation background can now use to sell their design ideas without getting too serious about real building performance. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe EcoDesigner is extremely precise and powerful. Who knows? Who has ever proven that the result of the energy evaluation match reality? You can say it's more powerful than ever: maybe it is. The option to import custom climate data is a huge step forward, but towards what?

The ONLY useful feature of previous issues of ED was the PHPP export capability: that allows for big saving as far as data extraction from the BIM model and input in the PHPP spreadsheet. In my mind, this is the only added value to the whole "green" section of Archicad 16. Now that that is gone, I don't know if I'm going to spend time on it at all.

Erika Epstein
Booster
The EcoDesigner that in 16 is now part of Archicad can be a very useful tool to evaluate siting, skin options etc. It can be more precise depending on how much time a firm puts in to check that all the numbers are correct for their use.

Someone from GS mentioned the STAR version here. Ecodesigner Star which will be out later this year(?) is supposed to allow much more precise calculations. GS will also have to weigh in on which of the many global required standards STAR will be able to generate submittable data for compliance verification beyond what the basic EcoDesigner can achieve.
Erika
Architect, Consultant
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"Implementing Successful Building Information Modeling"

Anonymous
Not applicable
... "precise" based on what?

Can anyone tell me what ED's calculation is based on? what standard? what ISO/ EN procedure? Do you seriously take the output of ED and base your design on that? Really?

I have yet to find any white paper validating EcoDesinger.

AC16 upgrade sounds to me like "do you want a preliminary evaluation tool? here's our greenwash toy for free (as in "at the normal upgrade fee"). You want something belivable, please pay more".

All this fuss about the a simple - but commercially very sellable - simple script to export data to an excel spreadsheet (PHPP).

Is there a way for me to learn how to create such a script to export to PHPP, so I can shut up and be happy?

Anonymous
Not applicable
I mean, the English version of the PHPP costs €150,00, how much can this EcoDesigner Star cost?

Karl Ottenstein
Moderator
Enrico wrote:
Karl, I appreciate your optimistic answer.
Hi Enrico,

Don't want to mislead you ... I was trying to be diplomatic, not optimistic. 😉 For my own uses, I found the new energy modeler useless as I could not adjust the wind to known, site-specific values, and it cannot handle complex profiled walls in a convenient way.

I agree that GS needs to speak up about this PHPP issue, standards and much more.

Regards,
Karl
One of the forum moderators   •   AC 25 USA and earlier   •   MacOS 11.6.6, iMac Pro

Anonymous
Not applicable
I guess we'll have to see.

I'll keep sending GS one tweet per day and see if, when and what they reply.

Miklos Sved
Graphisoft Alumni
Graphisoft Alumni
Hi Guys,

Just a few quick remarks, hoping to answer some of your questions/comments.

-) PHPP export will be an EcoDesigner* feature, along with other model geometry export functions (VIP_Energy, iSBEM, gbXML). We will, however, also make it available to former EcoDesigner users as a separate, one-function add-on to AC16. This is to make sure you are not loosing any formerly available software functionality.
I'll post more details regarding this topic next week.

-) We are validating EcoDesigner* according to ASHRAE 140 and making it work as APPENDIX G ASHRAE 90: Performance Rating Method prescribes. This will pave the way to other tests: EN-15265, IEA-BESTEST. Potential compliance includes Energy Star, Architecture 2030 Goal, Green Star, BCA Section J, NatHERS, NABERS. It'll take a lot of trials and administration to get all these stamps, but the software's been engineered to satisfy these standards.
The new technology we use in AC16 compared to previous EcoDesigner releases have been shaped by the regulations above - the benefits of the high-end energy tool's development trickle down to the basic version. It will be like this in the future, as well.

-) The dynamic simulation we use, even in the basic Energy Evaluation of AC16, is far more advanced than PHPP (which is basically a tweaked version of the old EN 13790 simplified method). PHPP is only accurate on super-insulated, airtight, mechanically vented buildings in cold to moderate climates. EE is accurate for a much broader range of buildings and climates

-) Not perfect solution but still: AC16 offers the most advanced method for handling BIM models of profiled building elements for the purpose of energy calculations, in the computer industry (please correct me if I'm wrong).

-) The on-site effect of wind can be modulated for every direction individually, using the Wind Protection diagram superimposed on the wind rose graph, on the dedicated dialog.
Please refer to AC16 Help File / Energy Evaluation for further details

Best Regards,

Miklos Sved
Miklos Sved
Graphisoft Product Manager

Anonymous
Not applicable
Sved, thank you for replying to my questions.

It sounds like you are doing a lot of work for ED*!.

I'll divide my own answer into three parts, and I hope I'll manage to be clear.

As far as EcoDesigner*, it sounds like it's going to be and actual dynamic energy simulator, something like Bentley TAS: is that so? If yes, what kind of output is going to give? My experience with TAS is that the amount of data output is so large, that you need a dedicated software to be able to sort out what you actually need... (don't get me wrong: I cannot wait to try it!)

- ETA: when is it going to be available?

- €/$: how much is it going to cost?

- Shading: is ED* going to be able to calculate actual shading, based on the real geometry of the virtual building?

- Thermal bridges: I know most dynamic softwares do not take them into account. What about ED*?

- Internal heat gains: I'm guessing you'll be able to create custom profiles on hourly basis?

- Climate data: seen the improvement in EDbasic, I guess you'll be able to import custom site climate data from Meteonorm, right?

- Thermal comfort: is it going to be possible to evaluate comfort conditions in critical rooms under dynamic conditions in summer (much like what Daemmwerk does)? This would be super helpful to verify comfort condition in the Mediterranean climate.

- MEP integration: is ED* going to be integrated with the MEP modeler in any way?

Furthermore, some nice additions to the overall energy design would be:

- Integrated daylight analysis;
- Lighting design tool;
- CFD;
- Embodied energy calculation (you can add an extra field per fill type "embodied energy", and calculate the overall embodied energy of design options)

Anonymous
Not applicable
As far as the PHPP:

I partially agree with what you say: the PHPP is only accurate with highly efficient, airtight envelopes, with a limited glazing-to-opaque-surfaces ratio. One more limitation is the fixed value for non-residential interior heat gains.

As far as I know, its accuracy does not depend on the climate. You may argue that the passive house concept does not work in warm climates: I can assure you it does (passive houses is actually part of my job here in Italy).

I think the PHPP is a valid and rather quick design instrument (once you import the envelope data into the spreadsheet, hence my question about the data export feature). I agree that in warm climates, the PHPP calculation must me integrated with a dynamic analysis to avoid discomfort peaks.


As far as data export from ED*, is the software going to export the same data as the previous version, or more? Version #15 was ok, but it did not export data about window frame geometry, shading etc.

Anonymous
Not applicable
As far as the free version of ED:

From what you are writing, I understand "EDbasic" is not validated according to any standard, therefore its output is worth nothing. It has been a commercial move of GS to include it for free in AC16.

In your experience (since I guess, you are working to develope it, right?), what is the error margin between "EDbasic" and ED*?

Miklos Sved
Graphisoft Alumni
Graphisoft Alumni
Enrico wrote:
Sved, thank you for replying to my questions.
It was my pleasure to reply to you.

Your questions show that you have a great dedication and knowledge for sustainable design. I wish a lot of our customers were like you: willing to put in the effort to master the art of energy efficient architectural design. This way they could use the tools we develop the best way, to really make a difference in the performance of their projects.
It sounds like you are doing a lot of work for ED*!.
I have been the product manager of EcoDesigner since day 1.
I'll divide my own answer into three parts, and I hope I'll manage to be clear.

As far as EcoDesigner*, it sounds like it's going to be and actual dynamic energy simulator, something like Bentley TAS: is that so?

EcoDesigner has always used the dynamic VIP-Core kernel for energy calculation. We used to only limit the detail level of the input to suit the original EcoDesigner product scope: comparative energy evaluation for design optimization. A good example of such limitation is the single thermal block energy model geometry we feed to the kernel (even though it is capable of doing multiple TBs)
If yes, what kind of output is going to give? My experience with TAS is that the amount of data output is so large, that you need a dedicated software to be able to sort out what you actually need... (don't get me wrong: I cannot wait to try it!)
EcoDesigner* will be a multiple thermal block, high end energy simulation tool, like TAS. Besides the detailed output in XLS format, though, it will also produce a customizable PDF, where users can select which chapters to include on the report sheets.
- ETA: when is it going to be available?
Q4 this year, although not with full functionality, yet. A public announcement containing the details is coming out soon..
- €/$: how much is it going to cost?

No final decision regarding the price, yet.
- Shading: is ED* going to be able to calculate actual shading, based on the real geometry of the virtual building?

Yes, we have developed the model-based solar irradiation study that monitors the annual energy gains through each glazed element individually, using the dynamic weather data and the model geometry.
- Thermal bridges: I know most dynamic softwares do not take them into account. What about ED*?

We have integrated a 2D thermal bridge simulation module that works directly on the AC detail. The resultant psi value (x effective length) can be linked back to the thermal block it belongs to, so it's effect is considered during the simulation.
- Internal heat gains: I'm guessing you'll be able to create custom profiles on hourly basis?

Yes.
- Climate data: seen the improvement in EDbasic, I guess you'll be able to import custom site climate data from Meteonorm, right?

Yes
- Thermal comfort: is it going to be possible to evaluate comfort conditions in critical rooms under dynamic conditions in summer (much like what Daemmwerk does)? This would be super helpful to verify comfort condition in the Mediterranean climate.

The kernel is capable of executing thermal comfort calculations, but we have not implemented this functionality on the AC model yet. I agree with you that it would be a very useful feature - something I really want to do in the future. The problem is that energy efficiency standards don't require this directly and the main driver behind our sustainable solutions development are these standards.
- MEP integration: is ED* going to be integrated with the MEP modeler in any way?

Unfortunately not.
Furthermore, some nice additions to the overall energy design would be:

- Integrated daylight analysis;
- Lighting design tool;
I know, but we would need integrated ray tracing or radiosity for that, inside AC first.
- CFD;

A proper CFD engine costs EUR30000. We could go for a simplified method like Energy+, but it would be a lot of development work. If EcoDesigner* becomes successful, it'll have to be done, to enable proper natural ventilation design, though.
- Embodied energy calculation (you can add an extra field per fill type "embodied energy", and calculate the overall embodied energy of design options)
Good idea! There's a little bit of something being developed for AC17 right now that will be a perfect starting point for such developments... 🙂
Miklos Sved
Graphisoft Product Manager

Anonymous
Not applicable
The more I hear about it, the more I am looking forward to try it.

You mentioned the 2D thermal bridges analysis integrated with AC detail tool (excellent!):

- Is it going to be validated according to ISO 10211, with air gap resistance calculated according to ISO 6946?

- What about ISO10077 for windows?

- Is the heat exchange with the ground going to be calculated according to EN13370?

- Even more importantly: is ED* going to be able to run calculations to estimate internal design temperature (according to ISO13788), to evaluate risk of condensation and mold?

I'm asking this because in the next month or two we are planning to purchase a software package to calculate ISO10211/ISO13788 and ISO10077 details. This package is alone something like €1500. Having a better idea of the validation of this 2D calculation tool, as the overall cost and ETA, may help us avoid buying other softwares.

Any chance future versions of Archicad are going to allow import of custom window/door profile form manufacturers?

What about shading from surrounding building?

It's a shame the MEP modeler is not going to be integrated right away. In my opinion, this is definitely something to consider for future development.

Again, thank you very much for answering all these questions!

Barry Kelly
Moderator
If Enrico isn't aready then he needs to be on the Alpha/Beta test team for ED*
Barry.

One of the forum moderators.
Versions 6.5 to 25
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Dell Precision 3510 - i7 6820HQ @ 2.70GHz, 16GB RAM, AMD FirePro W5130M, Windows 10

Miklos Sved
Graphisoft Alumni
Graphisoft Alumni
Enrico wrote:
As far as the PHPP:

I partially agree with what you say: the PHPP is only accurate with highly efficient, airtight envelopes, with a limited glazing-to-opaque-surfaces ratio. One more limitation is the fixed value for non-residential interior heat gains.

As far as I know, its accuracy does not depend on the climate. You may argue that the passive house concept does not work in warm climates: I can assure you it does (passive houses is actually part of my job here in Italy).
I believe it's condensation that kills the Passivhauses in hot, wet places. Maybe if you re-consider the position of the vapor barrier relative to the super-insulation it works but I've seen some horrible failures from places like Florida. You practice in warm, dry climate, right?
I think the PHPP is a valid and rather quick design instrument (once you import the envelope data into the spreadsheet, hence my question about the data export feature). I agree that in warm climates, the PHPP calculation must me integrated with a dynamic analysis to avoid discomfort peaks.

I totally agree with you on that.
As far as data export from ED*, is the software going to export the same data as the previous version, or more? Version #15 was ok, but it did not export data about window frame geometry, shading etc.
It'll export more (e.g. frame geometry including perimeter length)
Miklos Sved
Graphisoft Product Manager

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