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Design forum

Archicad 24. One Building, one team, one model

GOBA
Booster
Hi, I’m not sure if this topic should be in other section.

I’m structural engineer, user of ArchiCAD. I’m Spanish. I specify this because the most used structural software (two of them) are quite different from other countries. And this is because they generate the analytical model from the physical model. So, users of those software don’t really need the new features to generate the analytical model, in ArchiCAD.

But the reason I am writing this post, is because I am really surprised with the concept of “one team, one model”. I don understand it, I don’t intend to use it. But maybe, I haven’t understood. Let me try to explain myself.

If I have understood the workflow, physical model is responsibility of the architect. Is that it? If the proposed workflow is like that, how can this work? Structural design, before structural analysis should be done by the structural engineer (if there is one). So, do architects and engineers modify the same elements from the physical model? Isn’t this dangerous? I don’t see how engineers could design the structure, modifying slabs that architects are working with. We need to place beams, adapt slabs to those beams, and only then, the analytical model could be generated. Is this proposed to be done, in the same model?

Moreover, how do they manage, architects and engineers, to work with column’s floor plan display, if this configuration depends on the element, instead of the views. For example, If I want to show columns of story 1, and beams and slabs of story 2 (usual structural representation), I need to define “One story up” in “Floor plan display”, but this won’t work for the architect.

Haven’t I understood something?

Thanks!
ArchiCAD user since November 2109
AC24, Windows 10
19 REPLIES 19

Anonymous
Not applicable
Hi GOBA,

I haven't tested this feature, but from I saw in the presentation, Architect and Engineer share only the SAM (Structural Analytic Model). The Architect will use AC and the Engineer with RISA or SCIA. If I get it right.

Here is a tutorial I found in Spanish:



Does this help?

GOBA
Booster
Thanks Braza!

I’ve seen some videos, and yes, I think that’s the workflow, but I don’t see how it could work. In order to generate the SAF file, the physical model of the structure should be design. I think this won’t be done by the architect. At least, not always… so engineer will modify the physical model in ArchiCAD, and moreover, will use it to generate layouts.
ArchiCAD user since November 2109
AC24, Windows 10

Anonymous
Not applicable
You are welcome GOBA.
I get your point and I am confused too...
Perhaps it would be nice if GS create a practical tutorial with this workflow to clarify this. With also the integration of sw other than RISA and SCIA.

jl_lt
Mentor
What i understood from all this is once the analitical model is checked and done, you can send it to the engineers and then you can receive dimension proposals from the engineers from which you can actually change your columns and beams and slabs dimesions in the 3d archicad model; all this is done within the same database and environment instead of you having to import the engineers model and change everything manually, and then repeat all the process n number of iterations.

If one can somehow link the physical model with the analitical model and you can automatically adjust structural elements according to the engineer calculations, there a lot of benefits in this.

GOBA
Booster
Hi jl_lt,

So, can I assume that in other countries architects are responsible of the structural design (physical model with all the structural elements), and engineers are only responsible of the structural analysis (analytical model)?
ArchiCAD user since November 2109
AC24, Windows 10

The problem with this workflow is that it requires the structural engineer to use Archicad. I honestly do not see many structural engineers switching from Revit to Archicad when they work with other Architects that are using Revit. I am keen to see a business case (a real financial one, not one where people say it is better) for a Structural Engineer that works mainly with other consultants in Revit and some Architects in Archicad (because this is the reality in Australia). If there is a business case I will happily promote it to all of the engineers I work with. But knowing the challenges I face already in an Archicad > Revit workflow when I work with Engineers I struggle to see them wanting to take the plunge. Unless there are other significant cost/time savings that make it worthwhile.

One workflow I thought might be somewhat useful was that the Architect could generate a model in Archicad that was suitable for export as a SAM. But the problem is that the effort required by the Architect in Archicad to generate such a model would take too much time, and the lines of the model would probably be placed in the wrong location by the Architect, opening up liability to them. That way the Structural Engineer could benefit from the work of the Architect, but dangerously as the accuracy could be significantly off.

In the end, I hope the concept and workflows bring benefits to me, but I don't see them at the moment.
Nathan Hildebrandt
Director | Skewed
www.skewed.com.au
ARCHINTENSIVE 2023 is coming up soon - reach out to me if you want to present!

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Laszlo Nagy
Community Admin
Community Admin
My understanding is that there are two main cases:
1. Integrated Practices, where both architect and structural engineer is within the same firm. In this case, yes, they would probably make the structural engineer use Archicad (at least for some of the structural engineering tasks). They would also work in a shared Teamwork project environment.
2. Architects working with consultants. In this case, the architect would use Archicad, be responsible for creating and updating the Structural Analytical Model (SAM) in Archicad, but could exchange this data with the structural engineers through the SAF (Structural Analytical Format) format, or by using the bi-directional links with RISA or SCIA, if the structural engineer uses either software.
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GOBA
Booster
Thanks all of you.

I think everyone of us would need to find our workflow. I'm not convinced with Graphisoft proposal, even though I'm user of ArchiCAD, so I could work in Teamwork with the architect, in the same model.

I think it's better to have 2 physical models (architecture and structure), and coordinate them. Engineers being responsible of the physical and analytical model of the structure.
ArchiCAD user since November 2109
AC24, Windows 10

Takis
Enthusiast
Hi Goba, I am also a structural Engineer and I use Archicad for many years.
I agree that we have to find our way to communicate with Architects taking the advantage from this new feature.
In fact how I understand this new workflow is that having the project on BIMcloud, we use the same model with the Architect, off course we will take care of the SAM before exporting to the structural software either by exporting SAM or IFC.
Not all structural software have the option of SAM import / export, so the new revised model after the analysis won't be exported back to Archicad if IFC is used.
Furthermore to fully work with Archicad after the analysis and design, there are also some other limitations with the current tools provided in Archicad 24.
There is no Reinforcement Tool, there are no steel connections, the roof wizard tool creates objects instdead of beams, so those objects cannot be exported as members to the structural software using SAM. Also there are no specific tools for 2D detailing like anchors, bolts etc.
I want to believe that since Graphisoft has decided to include the Structural Analysis Model in Archicad, will not stop here but will continue to fulfill the software as it should be in a way that both Architects and Structural Engineers collaborate together in preparing the work to the final construction drawings stage and even more from that.

Takis.

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