Properties and Classifications vs Listing

[Rick Thompson]

I am new from AC 20 to 25.  Providing detailed material list has been a vital part of my work. I have unfortunately discovered a bad bug (you can't link a composite to a property object) so support is suggesting I should go ahead and switch to Properties and Classifications for my needs, but, from what I see there is still no way to achieve what I can extract from Listing.  I am well aware GS is transitioning away from Listing, but after years there is still no other way to extract quantities like number of studs... LF plate etc.

So, has anyone achieved a detailed material list via Properties and Classifications like the attached pdf?  From my initial checking it out, I don't think so.  I'd love to be wrong and that it would be easy to incorporate into existing PLN's via the Migration assistant, but I don't think so.

Below is what I can get from basic Listing with an exterior wall by linking a property object (based on the data base).  It's also integrated into over 200 PLN's and the thought of reworked each one with a new system is a non-starter.  Listing needs to work despite it being decades since it has been updated, it still does the job.  I'll attach a typical material list I can easily generate via Listing.  Well, easy after years of setting things up.

            Location         Description                                    Quanity       Unit       

       1   Exterior walls   2x4 plate x 3                                      53.313   LF         

       1   Exterior walls   2x4-9 Hem fir Wd Stud, 16oc              17.771   Pieces     

       1   Exterior walls   Base exterior walls                              17.771   LF         

       1   Exterior walls   Drywall mud                                          0.136   5 Gal. Pail

       1   Exterior walls   Drywall tape 250' roll                           0.273   Roll       

       1   Exterior walls   FGlas insulation wall R-see chart       136.319   SF         

       1   Exterior walls   GWB 4'x'8'x1/2"                                      4.226   Sheet      

       1   Exterior walls   Paint - exterior                                       0.545   Gal        

       1   Exterior walls   Paint - exterior primer                             0.545   Gal        

       1   Exterior walls   Paint - interior                                         0.545   Gal        

       1   Exterior walls   Paint - interior primer                             0.545   Gal        

       1   Exterior walls   Sheathing 1/2"                                         4.226   Sheet      

       1   Exterior walls   Siding                                                    136.319   SF         

       1   Exterior walls   Tyvek Building Wrap                             136.319   SF

[Rick Thompson]

I fully understand it being a legacy function, but it did and still will provides a path to an end that Properties has not arrived at, but hopefully will.  Yes I am an old timer and I appreciate learning new ways.  I started AC with 4.5 and Listing 6.5 so starting down a new path has always been a rewarding experience.  

Here I found a bug in Listing that breaks a function that is still available and fully documented under the Help menu as a solution.  All I ask is until Properties becomes more fully capable out of the box to do what listing does, don't fail to maintain what will.  It's a very expensive piece of software we pay for.  I did beta test for more than 10 years and liked having input and see some results of that input.  I don't have that option now, just this forum. So, I appreciate your suggestions, but would still appreciate Listing working till Properties grows up a bit more.  That's all.  

As Karl said above "I just don't see anything else in Archicad - property expressions, Python, etc - that is a substitute for the ancient Property Object / Listing function."  So why spend days learning python and other means to maybe, maybe not get the same results we now can until AC evolves a bit more.  I am all for expressions and properties, it's just doesn't help listing materials yet. so keep Listing alive a bit longer, please.  

[poco2013]

The Point that i was trying to convey, is that all of the material listing capabilities you posted are available now, abet in a different technology. I see nothing unusual in your attached Material list -- except for a wall stud estimate. There, because studs are a object, not a element, requires alteration of the GDL script for a exact count.

For myself, I only abandoned Listings and Property Objects because Graphisoft refused to allow that technology to have access to the new data types they implemented after Listings were introduced. In other words, the problem is just data access as is required to satisfy all reporting requirements.

I completely agree that the formatting capabilities of the List Schedules and the organizational capabilities of Property Objects are superior to the our interactive Schedules now. But i disagree that there are not better alternative now. Its just that Graphisoft does a terrible job of documenting those new features. Just as bad as the original Listing Documentation. It also adds to the confusion that Graphisoft has apparently decided to "slow walk" new options such as Python and documentation in general. .

I see your point, that if certain features work, than don't abandon them for the sake of something new? But, I don't believe that Listings meet today's documentation requirements. They are simply too data limited. However, I don't think Graphisoft will  remove them at any time soon.

IAE, It may take some effort, But I think the new tools do meet and exceed your requirements. I don't know why Graphisoft "crippled"  Listings to the extend that it became obsolete? I expect it had something to do with the abandonment of ODBC?

i am working on extending Python's data capabilities for 26, but getting little help for my concerns from  Graphisoft. I think their "off" on other issues right now.

Even at that, I expect that between properties, expressions, Excel and perhaps Python, all your requirements can be met and exceeded. but also agree there is no need to abandon what works.

[Rick Thompson]

Gerry, I really appreciate your time to reply and what you have said.  I am not going to give up, but might not get very far at this point due to a few practical reasons on my front 🙂  I do hope GS improves the documentation soon and provides some concrete built in useful examples, expressions, etc.  I use the very old rule of thumb w/Listing that one stud per wall's LF gets you very close to reality in estimating, I would assume that's more easily done than manually entering the many entries defined in the data base into schedules.  That seems overwhelming at this point.  So I am hopeful at least.  Thanks again

[Karl Ottenstein]

@poco2013 Thanks for all of your input here, Gerry!

I must just be totally missing it, but I don't believe there is anything in Archicad today that permits what Property Objects / Listing does / did.  Specifically:   Property Objects allow a one-to-many relationship and output:  a single wall can produce an unlimited amount of data entries that are summarized in a Listing.

The 'current' features within Archicad allow only one-to-one and many-to-one data mappings in Schedules and element properties.  Even Excel cannot do one-to-many relationships (without writing Visual Basic) - that is something limited to a true database.

But, I hope I'm wrong?

Karl

[poco2013]

Thanks for your input(s). I always learn a lot from practical users.

As to property Objects, they can do one (many) to many (one) relationships but I found them very limited in the data they could access and very cumbersome to work with. They do have the advantage of allowing a user specific database which can be tailored to projects needs.Generally, they can be altered with minimal effort. Not so with Listings which usually require a rewrite.

Excel can be very complicated too. But, ContraBIM does some amazing and fairly detailed reports. Unfortunately, many are generalized, again due to data limitations.

Now, with respect to Archicad, expressions were never designed for multi-relationships. Python scripts - other than the C++ API -- was introduced to do that.  However, any new technique is difficult to understand, particularly in Archicad. I really believe Graphisoft uses the Philosophy of - " We have given you examples , so figure it out for yourself"  Poor customer relations!!

Python does have some limitations -- notably in the presentation of data in Archicad- but that is more a Archicad limitation now.

I recognize that that this topic may be too abstract due to Graphisoft poor documentation efforts and some Advertising hype?

To my point, I would offer to demonstrate that Python script(s) can do more than the previous technologies, together with specific targeted videos and demo scripts,  if you, Rick or anyone else would care to post their typical project data lists together with  the applicable typical working sample plan(s). Rick's listing is very detailed but also very elementary and typical for most projects, His example only lacks an associated sample plan to demonstrate from? I think you will be surprised at the mostly short, easy to understand resulting scripts and their versatility. Certainly, not more complicated than expression programing. I would expect that both Graphisoft and myself might benefit from real world concerns. This would greatly help, as it is impossible now to communicate the  present limitations in Documentation to Graphisoft because, as i said before, they are "off" on other issues now. You can post suggestions, but I bet that they are mostly filed in the circular file cabinet, at present?

Note, that I am currently working in 26, so videos and such may have to wait until the 26 release, which is very close now anyway.

[Rick Thompson]

I sent a link via dropbox to your inbox for the pla the material list is pulled from.  Thank you so much for your time and hope it helps others and not just me.

[bouhmidage]

CONTRABIM SYSTEMS is an entrance to a a much bigger world of quantity takeoff, 

I bought the system product, than i made a huge modification on it to adapt it for my work, 

Combining schedules, expressions, classifications and some intermediate excel skills will bring you to another level, 

Using systems, i extracted quantites of  elements that i didnt model it at all, like you said, sheets quantities from standard sizes, 

It's tricky, yes, but when you get familiar with,  you can do a lot of good stuff, 

The one missing part is calculation and "smart database, 

Archicad, so far, can't multiply quantities and unit price, 

Database is not a " 1 place to put all the stuff " , using properties, it should be fragmented to small databases according to the elements you're planning to use for, a mess, 

Excel can do this for you using vlookup formula, .

I"ll be glad to help you !

[Rick Thompson]

Thank you for your input and your generous offer to help.  I have watched some of Contrabim's videos and they are simply amazing at the whole deal.  It's a huge commitment for me to consider shifting gears here.  I have over 200 active plans and list.  I can run a list and format it in Numbers (Mac's excel) in about 15min. which has to be a lot faster than starting over with this  more advanced option.  To consider starting a new approach is not first on my time list 🙂  I am rerunning all my list as I realized a few links broke during the shift to Building Materials and some info was left out of subsequent list, plus realizing a few details I could do to make them better.  I am pretty far into it so I will finish and see where to go in the future, which might not include me 🙂 🙂 

[Karl Ottenstein]

@bouhmidage This sounds really interesting.  Looking forward to what you, Gerry and Rick share over time.

One correction:  Archicad "can" multiply quantities and unit prices...  but only with the old database / Property Object / Listing functionality... unfortunately, as Gerry notes, that was never properly documented... and legend has it, that only one person (the original author / programmer) at Graphisoft fully understood it and that was over 20 years ago.  Most of it was explained well in Eric Wilk's 2007 book "Archicad From CAD to Quantity Survey" ... although the graphical report format remains a partial mystery.  Anyway, since it is all a deprecated feature, hearing about Contrabim and the potential python approaches will be very interesting to many people.  Perhaps a new thread should be started for that.

[Rick Thompson]

Thought I'd update a bit. I recently had an exchange with a Senior Technical Support Engineer about this. I ended up sending him a pla and the material list generated from it.  He was very helpful in interested in the issue.  We talked on the phone several times.  The long short is he said you could probably, maybe, produce the same list with the Properties and Classifications... BUT, the amount of time and effort would be HUGE, and extracting the composite list would be another issue altogether.  So, from my perspective, here we are. It has taken years to make an existing function that worked, despite the lack of guidance... "Legacy" and broken. Now replaced by a structure that no one seems to be able to reproduce out of the box, a simple material list. BIM.. say what?  This is very depressing for such and expensive software.