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Modeling
About Archicad's design tools, element connections, modeling concepts, etc.

FPCP display of beams is incorrect - cut is offset

Anonymous
Not applicable
Hello,
I did an experiment using the column, beam, roof, and wall tools
and came up with something that is, to me, quite strange.
Please see attachment. Why does the beam tool show the
FPCP cut in a different location than in the other three tools ?
The thickness off all elements is the same, one foot.
Note that the displacement is exactly the difference between
the length of the hypotenuse and the length of the opposite side
of a right triangle drawn in the manner shown in the attachment.

I think that the cut is shown correctly for three of the tools but
is incorrect for the beam tool. If I am missing something
please let me know.
Thank you,
Peter Devlin

Picture.png
31 REPLIES 31
Greg Kmethy
Graphisoft
Graphisoft
Rakela wrote:
if I were GS i would give Peter something, free lic, dont know !!
I'm not sure I can arrange for a free lic, but I'll make sure Peter gets one of our new ArchiCAD 12 T-Shirts!

Greg
Gergely Kmethy
VP, Customer Success, Graphisoft
Rakela Raul
Participant
I'm not sure I can arrange for a free lic, but I'll make sure Peter gets one of or new ArchiCAD 12 T-Shirts!

Greg
WELL DONE, CONGRATS !!!!
MACBKPro /32GiG / 240SSD
AC V6 to V18 - RVT V11 to V16
Anonymous
Not applicable
Is that all?
Maybe upper management should
rethink that?
Kinda seems like leaving a penny tip.
Bier
Anonymous
Not applicable
Hello,
I have been thinking about whether this is an important issue or not.
Karl wrote:
"Or have untold numbers of construction documents been sent out around the world with
incorrect information, especially if the cut was dimensioned...?!"
I wrote:
"To me, unless someone can explain why this is correct, this is a serious issue."

The FPCP in the days of paper and pencil drafting was an arbitrary convention for presenting
an understandable floor plan. One could even joggle the "cut plane" up and down for clarity.
For example, in the furniture plan, the doors and windows appeared to be cut at about 6'-0" from the floor
but the grandfather clock in the corner was not sawed off at 6'-0" and
drawn showing a cut through the pendulum arm and the weight chains
but was drawn showing the top view at about 7'-6".

As of AC 10, there is now this absolutely literal sense of the concept
of the floor plan "cut plane" where it is no longer a graphical convention
but a drawing of a view of the walls, roofs, beam, etc sawed off at a certain
height from the floor and elements or parts of elements above this plane
are indicated by dashed lines .

In either case, as far as I can tell, it never was, or is, necessary, important, needed, or logical, in any context,
to measure anything from an edge of this cut plane representation.

Therefor, I withdraw my comment and suggest, perhaps, that Graphisoft eliminate the hotspots from the corners of the cutplane rectangle
for all of the tools that can be inclined relative to horizontal.
I understand that all tools should be consistent in there representation of the cutplane to eliminate confusion.
I say "perhaps" because one of the things I appreciate about AC is that this application is not autocratic.
If you want to do something, maybe stupid from some other point of view, AC does not disallow you from doing so.

If anyone knows why there is a necessity to measure from
the edge, center, etc of the cutplane, please explain this to me.
I clearly need to know.

Thank you,
Peter Devlin
Dwight
Newcomer
Peter wrote:

If anyone knows why there is a necessity to measure from
the edge, center, etc of the cutplane, please explain this to me.
I clearly need to know.
I am horrified that you would tolerate this.

The reason Archicad views need to be correct is to be reliable. If there are inconsistencies, how can we trust them?

As for cut planes being symbolic - perhaps they were in the old days [and can still be if you warn folks about it], but I often need to clearly know where i am in a structure because i actually build oblique things in my shop, not pass over a bunch of crayon-on-the-back-of-an-envelope to a bunch of guys who redraw my work into work they can rely on. Tolerating this inaccuracy just makes us all a bunch of idiots and weasels - the kind of guys who actually need those boiler plate disclaimers we were so hotly discussing in the summer. "Here's an inconsistent sketch because our tilted beams don't read correctly - now build a building if you dare, buster."

Either it works or it is broken.
Dwight Atkinson
Anonymous
Not applicable
Peter wrote:
If anyone knows why there is a necessity to measure from
the edge, center, etc of the cutplane, please explain this to me.
I think its a good way to help the design process...
Imagine if you need to place an angled beam/column witch needs to join with another beam at the FPCP ?...
I think it would be very helpful...

What do you think?
Anonymous
Not applicable
Hello Dwight and Paulo,
I did say:
"I understand that all tools should be consistent in there representation of the cut plane to eliminate confusion." and I meant it. Perhaps I should have
also said that the representation should be accurate also to prevent confusion.

What I was wondering about was under what circumstances would there be
a need to measure the cut plane or measure to and from the cut plane and display these dimensions in the working drawings.
Peter Devlin
Karl Ottenstein
Moderator
Peter wrote:
What I was wondering about was under what circumstances would there be
a need to measure the cut plane or measure to and from the cut plane and display these dimensions in the working drawings.
Peter Devlin
Well, as others said, to create buildable construction documents. Dwight's sculptural example and Braza's joining of elements (which need to be cut by a fabrication shop - so we need dimensions) seem to describe the issue.

Imagine, too, a massive concert hall - or olympic venue - where only via the cutplane can you create documents that describe where the various elements meet and penetrate. Suppose there is a metal perf-panel ceiling that has to be pre-cut - how are the holes and reinforcement to be laid out if the FPCP display at the celing height isn't accurate. Etc.

And...there is the engineering thing. Computing moments, etc... The engineer calls to verify the length of one beam that joins another...which he measured from the dwg that we published for him. And, then we cannot measure ourselves because there are no hotspots in our source view?

So, no, it is a grievously evil bug that you have exposed, Peter, and not only does it need correction (which GS is working on) - but we need hotspots as well IMHO.

My 2 cents 😉

Karl
One of the forum moderators
AC 27 USA and earlier   •   macOS Ventura 13.6.7, MacBook Pro M2 Max 12CPU/30GPU cores, 32GB
Anonymous
Not applicable
Hello Karl,
I can see that if you use floor plan cut planes in the ways you describe
then you have to be able to measure them and they must be absolutely accurate. I was thinking that if you needed to display that kind of
information you would make drafted drawings and use sections
as we would have prior to AC 10.
Thanks for explaining some ways of using the FPCP.
Peter Devlin
Greg Kmethy
Graphisoft
Graphisoft
This problem should now be fixed in Hotfix#2
Gergely Kmethy
VP, Customer Success, Graphisoft